unfiltered therapists podcast Episode transcripts

Rayan (00:01.27)

Thank you so much for joining us today. We are here with AJ, who is a mom and trauma -informed parenting consultant, a child development specialist, and children's advocate. AJ is gonna join us to talk about high conflict divorce, the effects of maladaptive parenting on children, and just kind of the challenges and the barriers that parents face moving through a high conflict divorce. AJ, is there anything you would add to that? Anything you would say?

AJ Gajjar (00:37.542)

No, thank you very much for having me. I really look forward to this conversation.

Rayan (00:41.518)

I'm so excited. So you do kind of a lot of things with your work. You're an educator, right? But also you work directly with families, if I'm not mistaken. What is that like for you? You have so much experience. I've been on your website, I have kind of been looking into you, but like you have so much experience in this work. What is it like for you to do this?

AJ Gajjar (00:51.206)

Yes.

AJ Gajjar (01:07.206)

You know what, I think because I have such a personal stake in it, it is really fulfilling and validating for me to be able to support other parents through it. So a little bit of background in myself, maybe I'll start there. I had to learn how to navigate a very high conflict divorce and learn how to support my daughter through it at a time when there were not a lot of resources out there specific to high conflict divorce, right? It really wasn't all that understood. It really isn't still.

So when I was learning how to navigate my way through it, it was super challenging. And I had kind of gotten stuck in this place of understanding that my relationship had been, my marriage had been psychologically and emotionally abusive. I was a little bit misinformed at the time where I was under the impression that the implications of that were for me and me only, because my daughter was not a direct target of any of that. So she should have been okay. She was sheltered from it.

Rayan (01:38.446)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (02:04.262)

But then as time went on and the divorce progressed and we have 50 -50 custody, what I started seeing with her was I saw the typical behaviors that you see kids express when they're trying to kind of come to terms with divorce, adapting to a split family dynamic, things like that, because there are consistent things that you'll see. But then there were other things that I was seeing that were just off the charts with her. And that's when I really started diving into...

Okay, there's something here that I'm missing. The implications of having, for me, having a high -conflict partner are actually quite similar to what it is for her having a high -conflict parent. And that's when I really kind of started unraveling, we're kind of missing the boat here. These kids are really struggling.

Rayan (02:52.27)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (02:55.014)

Because one of the things as you know, that we know now with high conflict personalities is they're very persistent and very consistent across time, right? And there are times when people are like, well, I know he wasn't the best partner, but this person can be a really, really great parent. And I always kind of put a caveat in there with that because it's really, really challenging for them to, just because they don't have the capacity to.

to meet the child's social and emotional needs. And it, right, like being able to kind of provide that insight to parents and then show them that there's a different way where we can really support these kids that can continue to help them thrive despite what they're dealing with with the other parent. Kind of that's where I get a lot of fulfillment from is providing that hope to parents, right? This isn't all dew and gloom. There's so many things that we can do to still help support these kids.

Rayan (03:48.238)

Yeah. Yeah. And so then from all of this out came the trauma healing parents. Tell us about the trauma healing parent. You are the founder. But what do we need to know about your organization?

AJ Gajjar (03:59.526)

Yes.

AJ Gajjar (04:04.198)

So the trauma healing parent came about again when I was in the process of trying to find a way to support my daughter. And I have, by this point in time, I'd had over 15 years experience working with parents and children. So I should have known in my head, I was like, I should know how to deal with this. But everything that I was trying, all the strategies, all the tools, all the parenting resources, they weren't specifically working for my daughter. And I couldn't really figure out why.

Rayan (04:17.39)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (04:30.246)

So then that's what trauma healing parent came about because I thought, you know what, these kids, what they're experiencing is so different, how they're presenting is so different, and they need a very specific and nuanced approach in how to support them through this, that's actually gonna work for them, because other things weren't working. So that's kind of where trauma healing parenting came from. I've taken research in attachment theory and trauma research and neurobiological development, developmental psychology.

Rayan (04:47.982)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (05:00.39)

and put all of that together and taking bits and pieces from like therapeutic parenting and things like that as well, put all that together in a approach, a parenting approach that is specifically designed for children with high conflict divorce. And it's set up in a way where we get to a point where we acknowledge what's happening at the other parent's house. We don't spend all of our time there because it's...

Rayan (05:15.2)

That's it.

AJ Gajjar (05:28.678)

I like to talk to parents about radical acceptance first and foremost. We have to acknowledge what they're dealing with. We have to acknowledge what we can control, what we can't, what we can change, what we can't. And then we really hone in and focus in on where our power is. And that's where we get into attachment. We get into the importance of the relationship. We get into how are you going to create a trauma healing relationship with your kid? How are we going to create a trauma healing environment with your kid?

What do transition days look like? What does your home environment look like? What is the consistency within that look like, right? How do we recreate a sense of safety for these kids when they return back home to you from the other parent's house? Because there's a lot of, right? There's so much challenge and so much going through that for these kids during that period of time, because they've spent time not feeling safe. So let's reestablish safety for them first, right? Before they're gonna move forward to do anything else.

Rayan (06:10.478)

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Rayan (06:23.822)

Yeah. How does, I love that. I love the return to safety, right? Like we want to really encourage parents to create that safety coming back from the high conflict grant. That's incredible. I love that. How do you, I guess, help people move through that if the conflict is so high, sorry, if the divorce is so high conflict, do you find that, you know, you're getting...

different information or do you find that like, you know, working with the parent is necessary to work with the child? Like how do you, how do you figure out where to start targeting things, I guess?

AJ Gajjar (07:03.046)

So the first thing that we really want to do is eliminate and minimize all distractions. So if that dynamic is super high conflict, how are we going to deflate the conflict there first? And we put up really solid boundaries. We implement really solid communication strategies in terms of when we're communicating, what we're communicating. What I find with a lot of high conflict situations is we're probably over -communicating with the other parent. And we're

Rayan (07:07.694)

Mmm.

AJ Gajjar (07:31.43)

probably communicating in a way that isn't conducive to minimizing conflict, right? So we kind of pick all of that apart and create really solid boundaries so that the parent that I'm working with is not now in a place of defense, is not on edge, is not in a place where they're always wondering when that next email is gonna come in, what the next big thing is gonna be.

Rayan (07:50.606)

Mm -hmm.

AJ Gajjar (07:58.48)

and things like that so that we can really open up their capacity for them to then shift and focus on the children.

Rayan (08:05.006)

Right. Right.

AJ Gajjar (08:06.342)

So yeah, that's where we kind of start because we have to kind of minimize all that noise and all that distraction if we're going to really focus on the kids.

Rayan (08:17.038)

Which also then helps create that safety for the parent, right? Like the parent that is trying to create the safety for the kiddo. So you're really like, you're doing all of the same things that we would be doing for the kid going through the divorce with the parent and modeling that behavior, which is really cool. Yeah, that is.

AJ Gajjar (08:34.31)

Totally. And there's so much research out there, right, that shows if the parent is okay, the kids are going to be okay. Which is, you know, absolutely correct, but I would add to that also that it still takes very intentional work and showing up in a very intentional way for these kids for those outcomes to be okay for them.

Rayan (08:58.702)

What do you find is the biggest challenge working with high conflict divorce and kids who are going through high conflict divorce?

AJ Gajjar (09:10.522)

I'm pausing because there's two, I'll speak to one for the parent and one for the child. I think for the parent, to be quite honest with you, the biggest hurdle is getting to that radical acceptance piece. The biggest hurdle is letting go of, but they're doing this and they're doing this and they're doing this, right? And really being able to take a step back and be like, I know that's what they're doing.

Rayan (09:15.714)

Yeah, thank you so much.

Rayan (09:25.23)

Mm.

AJ Gajjar (09:39.59)

we can't control it, we're not gonna be able to change it. So we can spin in this circle, or we can get you out of it, right? And I think for a lot of that for parents, it's just creating a space for them to be seen and heard and validated. Because high conflict is so tricky. And when you go through the channels that have been put in front of us, right? The law community, things like that.

There's so much secondary abuse that they're experiencing through their own invalidation and second guessing themselves all the time that a lot of the time they just need the time and the space to really feel seen and heard and understand that somebody else understands what they're going through. And yeah, this is tough and it is not okay. What the other parent is doing to the kids is absolutely not okay. I see it, I hear it, I get it, but there's nothing we can do.

So let's focus our attention on what we can do about it. And that's where the progress and that's where that's gonna be, right? So that's really what the parent, what I see with the children through the parent really, cause I don't actually directly work with the kids. I work with the parents, right? But what I see with the children is some parents are very, you know, I just want my kid to get to a place where they see the other parent for who they are.

and they see what's happening to them and they can, you know, just establish their own boundaries and stuff like that. And I really, a word of caution to parents who are thinking that way is there will come a time where the kids will see their parent for who they are, but the grief and the sadness that comes with recognizing that is huge for these kids, right? Because there comes a point where they do finally realize that this parent,

Rayan (11:05.558)

Yeah.

Rayan (11:26.574)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (11:33.158)

And it's not from a blame perspective, it's from an acknowledgement perspective, right? That this parent just doesn't have the capacity to show up for me in the way I need them to. And when you see that realization, and I've seen it in my daughter a couple times too, right? Like when you see that in their eyes, it's just so heartbreaking. Yeah, it's so sad for them.

Rayan (11:50.346)

it's so sad.

Yeah, that's a hard thing to work through. Even as a parent supporting your kid through that after going through a very high conflict divorce is like, there's layers to layers to layers to that. It's hard. But I would agree. I see that a lot where where parents are like, hey, I really just like I need my kid to see this person for who they are because they have so much hope and they have so much this and they really just want this to happen. But I know it's never going to happen. And unfortunately, it's one of those things where we just have to like.

AJ Gajjar (12:04.77)

Yes.

Rayan (12:22.048)

live and let live and like they're gonna figure it out when they figure it out but to want them to figure it out earlier than they need to is also very sad. Very sad.

AJ Gajjar (12:30.054)

Yeah, exactly, right? And they still, these kids, they also have an attachment relationship to that parent. They're always gonna have hope, right? They're always gonna have hope that this parent one day is gonna show up for me. So, I mean, part of me says just let them have that hope for as long as they can, because they're gonna see it one day.

Rayan (12:38.702)

Yeah. They're always not. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rayan (12:53.07)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like, it's so tough because actually, maybe I'll let you answer this question. It's tough. And I also do want to go back to something you said about the systemic, the things in place, like the systemic barriers that parents have to face. What are your thoughts on that? And like the courts are like the system in place helping us navigate a high conflict divorce.

AJ Gajjar (13:17.862)

Well, I think the system, the way it's set up right now is not set up for child protection, right? When you look at the legal system, you look at courts, you look at all of that. It's actually not set up for child protection. And I learned that the hard way. It's set up to protect parental rights. And basically their default seems to be, okay, you're going through a divorce, whether it's high complex or not, there isn't a lot of awareness around the nuances within that.

Rayan (13:29.858)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (13:42.598)

and you both have this kid, this kid's treated as property, there's a flight down the middle, 50 -50, here you go, you know, you're merely on your way, not fully understanding that when you have a child being raised by a high -conflict parent, that's causing long -term damage to the child, right? And the ideal really, I fully support the idea of children having a relationship with both parents, right? Because that is helpful for them.

And they can continue to have a relationship even with the high conflict parent with proper parameters in place that don't put them in harm. Right? And I think that's the gap that the systems are missing right now. So I have parents coming to me saying, well, my kid didn't eat for three days and they didn't, you know, this, that, and all of this damage is being done and I'm going to courts and I'm going to lawyers and I'm going to therapists sometimes and nobody seems to be able to help me.

nobody seems to be able to say these are the things that you can do in order to keep your child safe, right? Because default Melbourne has 50 -50 custody wise, and it is very, very difficult to prove that there's anything else that would be in the child's best interest, right? So there's a lot of challenges in the actual system. There's a lot of challenges.

like both in the legal system, I think there's challenges in the therapeutic system just by the nature of the system, right? You require dual consent to get therapy for your children. And the high conflict parent is likely never going to consent to therapy for their children. That is a very consistent thing across the board that they will not consent to.

Rayan (15:16.854)

Yup.

Rayan (15:26.894)

Yeah, it's hard. It's so hard, yeah.

AJ Gajjar (15:30.342)

Right? So I think a lot of places were in desperation and myself included, I was in this place. It just felt like everywhere I was turning to for support and for help, there were barriers in place, there were hurdles in place. I couldn't get over them and nobody seemed to be wanting to help me. So it becomes really, really tricky for these parents, right? And what I tell them is,

Rayan (15:49.774)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (15:57.318)

Unfortunately, the system is set up the way it's set up. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I know there's a lot of great work being done within the system, advocacy -wise and things like that. There is starting to be a level of awareness that's being created around the impacts of domestic abuse and coercive control and high -conflict stuff in that way. But as far as looking at systemic change in a way that's going to impact their decision -making, that is very, very long and far off right now.

Rayan (16:05.838)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rayan (16:27.086)

Well, it was only recently in history, history -wise, but it was very only recently where emotional abuse became a part of the definition of what an abusive relationship looked like, right? Or an abusive parent looked like. And so high conflict is also an extension of emotional abuse a lot of times, right? Where it's not, maybe it's not that there's physical abuse, maybe there is, but maybe there's, it's the...

AJ Gajjar (16:39.142)

Yes. Yeah.

Rayan (16:54.574)

the power struggles or maybe it's the I'm not going to cooperate at all or I'm going to do things completely opposite to the way that you're doing things and so it does become difficult trying to find supports when you know you're looking it seems like you're grasping at straws for anyone that can do something but everything like a 50

AJ Gajjar (17:11.302)

Well, and I think, yeah, and I think totally. And I think part of it also is like high conflict and narcissism and those words seem to be thrown around quite loosely lately. So I think there's almost a bit of complacency that's set into the legal system and things like that because everybody's ex is high conflict and everybody's ex is a narcissist. And, you know, everybody is showing up in this way. And,

Rayan (17:28.086)

Mm -hmm.

AJ Gajjar (17:41.35)

It's really coming to terms with there are considerable differences between individuals who have been in abusive environments and are now in a high conflict situation with a very high conflict individual over time versus, I'm just showing up in a very high conflict way because this is a divorce and emotions are running high and there's anger and bitterness and betrayal and resentment and all of those things, right?

Rayan (17:58.222)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (18:06.708)

It's huge.

AJ Gajjar (18:08.198)

Because inherently in divorce, you're going to see that at the beginning, no matter what kind of a divorce you're having, I would say, like over 90%. But it's when it's sustained long term, right? You're three years out, five years out, and you're still cycling around the same things. That's when you really need to take a much closer look at it, I think, and not just dismiss it as, yeah, okay, everyone's a narcissist and everyone's exes high conflict and things like that, right?

Rayan (18:36.462)

I totally agree. I do think those terms have become very loosely used. And I agree where it's like, if it's a sustained issue, it becomes a lot more challenging to manage because then there is almost the hopelessness. Like, well, like we're five years into it and like nothing has changed. What do I do? And five years into it and your kids are still struggling with it, right? Like that's a long time. What would you say for...

Is there a difference or like is there a I don't know anything that would change if the high conflict was was there pre divorce? Do you know what I mean? Like what if what if it was a high conflict relationship prior to the divorce? The divorce was high conflict. Like how do we manage when it's been years and years and years of it?

AJ Gajjar (19:26.982)

That's a great question. I think a lot of it for me always comes down to the radical acceptance piece, right? And a lot of the idea also is it's coming to terms with what happened because I know when I was in my marriage, which was emotionally and psychologically abusive, I didn't see it for what it was when I was in it. And that seems to be a very common experience for people who are in abusive relationships is you don't actually see it for what it is when you're in it, right? So you may not have recognized it as high conflict. That was just...

Rayan (19:33.934)

Yeah, yeah.

Rayan (19:46.574)

Mm.

AJ Gajjar (19:56.71)

the way that person was and that was just the dynamic and that was just right. We make excuses for it all the time. So then when you're right and then when you're out of it, then all of a sudden like things just they feel like they've become so much more difficult than they need to be. Right. And for people, I think going through it the first time, first time divorce, first time high conflict, all of that, you really do have to take a step back and think about like I know I did and I got stuck there for a very long time.

Rayan (20:02.698)

of course, yeah.

AJ Gajjar (20:26.342)

Like is everyone's divorce this difficult? Like does all of this take this much time, right? Like there was an email thread I remember that went back and forth between my ex around getting my daughter into therapy that went on for six months because he just would not consent to therapy. So I gave him the research and I gave him, you know, all of her behaviors that I was seeing in my daughter and I was just everything that I could show to him.

Rayan (20:46.318)

one.

AJ Gajjar (20:56.038)

to prove, hey, our kid needs therapy, let's get her in. And there was nothing I could say that was gonna convince him, right? I went to family doctors and they were like, well, we're gonna actually stay out of this. We don't usually get involved. Okay, I went to therapists saying, okay, this is what my daughter's dealing with. They're like, yeah, absolutely, we'd love to work with her, but you need dual consent, right? So it was like, so when you look at circumstances like that where it's like, does this really have to be this difficult?

And chances are if you're asking yourself that question, this is high conflict and probably doesn't need to be this difficult, right? Because then you hear of other people, probably in your world, who are like, well, my divorce was very clean and very simple and we're really good friends now and I can call them up and, you know, we're very fluid with the kids and the kids can stay here or there and wherever. And then you're sitting here thinking, well, then what am I doing wrong?

Rayan (21:31.886)

Right. Right.

Rayan (21:51.31)

Right?

AJ Gajjar (21:52.006)

for this to not work, right? And I think there's a lot of self -blame that comes in with that also because we tend to take so much responsibility that it's like, I must be doing something wrong for this to not be working.

Rayan (22:08.014)

No, I totally agree. And I appreciate that, like, that you're totally right. When we're in it, we maybe don't even realize it until we get some distance from it and we start to compare it to other models that we have, right? Where we're like, why was this so hard? And yeah, I do think there is a systemic barrier to accessing anything if you are a child of a divorced parent, because you do need both parents to be on board, unfortunately, when it comes to like...

AJ Gajjar (22:25.894)

Yep.

Rayan (22:38.412)

treatments of any kind, right? Like it's so, it's hard and it's hard for a health professional as well to sit there and be like, I'll play mediator and I'm gonna do this despite knowing that the other parent doesn't want to because that also is ethically inappropriate. But what would, what's your idea of like an ideal situation? How can we better support children who are going through a high conflict divorce or even parents who are going through a high conflict divorce?

AJ Gajjar (23:10.25)

I think, you know what, the best thing we can do that works for these kids is to put all our focus and all our energy into these kids when we have them. There's only so much energy we can put into fighting these systemic barriers that we have. With the things in place, I'm not saying we walk away from it. If your kid needs therapy, your kid needs therapy. Let's go through the motions.

Rayan (23:20.654)

Right.

Rayan (23:28.494)

Right. Right.

AJ Gajjar (23:35.75)

to maybe get full decision -making authority, to maybe get what it is that we need for these kids, right? But after that, at the end of it, and I can even refer back to a client I was talking to, and she was so hyper -focused on getting her children therapy, and I said, okay, let's take that for what it is, and it's absolutely beneficial for these kids to have therapy, but let's also not put all our eggs in one basket.

Rayan (23:41.966)

Right.

AJ Gajjar (24:04.038)

Your kid's going to see the therapist what? Once every two weeks? Once a month? Where are they spending the rest of their time? So let's really enhance your own ability to show up for these kids in the way that they need you to show up for them so that you can really be their place of power and their place of support and their place of comfort. And you know, not to say that they're not going to need therapy at that point.

Rayan (24:04.14)

Yeah.

Rayan (24:09.474)

Yeah.

Rayan (24:25.038)

Right.

AJ Gajjar (24:29.318)

But in the meantime, especially while we're going through the motions of doing all the other things, let's make sure that we have you put in a place where you can be there for them in the way that you need to show up with them, right? And a lot of parents are like, well, you know, this is my parenting style and this is how I parent and this is what needs to happen. I'm like, okay, but how is that working for you? And how is that working for your kids? Because unless this is coming relationship first, and there's a lot of...

Rayan (24:37.518)

Yeah.

Rayan (24:54.318)

Right.

AJ Gajjar (24:59.13)

There's a lot of hard conversations that you sometimes need to have, right? Because it's about taking a step back and being like, okay, is the way I'm showing up actually working for this kid? Because if it's not, we got to change it, right? We got to let our own ideas go. We get to let our own expectations of how we want it to parent go and actually show up in the way this kid needs us to show up.

Rayan (25:11.66)

Yeah.

Rayan (25:22.862)

Totally, totally. And I mean, regardless of the issue, we know from working with kids in general that if a parent is emotionally responsive and if a parent is safe and if a parent is able to show up for their kids, then they have better outcomes just in general, right? They have a better trajectory in general. And I totally agree with you. Therapy is great and we love it here, but it's not the be all end all. Whereas unfortunately, I think a lot of times,

AJ Gajjar (25:39.078)

Yeah.

Rayan (25:52.142)

It's made to feel like the be all end all, like, well, if they need therapy, they need therapy and there is no substitution. And there are totally other things that we can be doing to build resilience or to build safety, to build all of those things outside of therapy also. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (25:57.062)

Yes.

AJ Gajjar (26:06.022)

Yes, well, and that's just it, right? If a kid goes to therapy once every two weeks or once a month, and the home environment, even with a non -high -conflict parent, is not responsive to their needs, then there's only so far that therapy is also going to go.

Rayan (26:14.988)

Yeah.

Rayan (26:20.878)

Totally, well even here, like I know at Kindred Roots, like we want the parents to be involved, right? Like we want parents to come in and we want to strategize with parents and we want to see what we can be doing differently at home, at school, all these kinds of things to support their child's wellbeing. A child has so much less power than an adult does. Like they really are very dependent on what their environment looks like, right? And so we want to be able to support them in all aspects of their life so that they do have better outcomes.

in general. So like you said, if one parent is like totally uninvolved and is like, I don't want to do any of this, how can we support them otherwise, right? Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (26:49.446)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (26:57.382)

Yeah. Well, and I'm so glad you brought up the power, the subject of power, because children do have such a little amount of power, right? But then, you know what? Let's enhance that for them with when they're in a healthy environment and they're with a non -high conflict parent, let's try and give them developmentally appropriate levels of power, but let's try and give them as much power and control as possible to help them build that confidence and build that...

Rayan (27:03.214)

Yeah.

such a difficult time.

Rayan (27:10.252)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (27:17.646)

Of course.

AJ Gajjar (27:24.806)

It's like building a muscle, right? If we give them practice doing it, then, you know, let's give that to them because they don't really have it anywhere else. They definitely don't have it at the other parent's house. As these children get older, they do start recognizing that they don't have it as far as the system goes either. I remember there was a day when my daughter came to me and she looked at me straight in the eyes and she said, mommy, why won't you fight for me? And why won't anybody listen to me? And I was like,

okay kiddo. So I consider myself like blessed and I'm super grateful that I have the skill set that I have to be able to have that conversation with her at an age -appropriate level. But like I said right as they get older they start recognizing the limits on their power. They start recognizing they have no power at the other parent's house. They start recognizing that nobody in the system, lawyers, therapists, doctors, nobody's really listening to what it is they want right?

Rayan (28:23.502)

Yeah, that's such a heartbreaking conversation to have. That's so hard. Yeah, sure. That's brutal. And you're right. You do have a very specific skill set that is so needed in the general community. What would you say to parents who are struggling at the moment? What can they be doing to enhance their own skill sets? What can they be doing to support their children? What needs to be done?

AJ Gajjar (28:24.55)

So.

Yeah, it wasn't an easy one for sure.

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (28:55.462)

I think we can start having really open conversations with our kids. At an age -appropriate level, we can have very open conversations with them, right? So make sure that you're open to them bringing you anything. You know, Mommy's always here, Daddy's always here. You can talk to us about anything. And then have those conversations with them, right? Even the really tough ones. So, this happened at Mommy's house this weekend, or this happened at Daddy's house this weekend. Okay.

Rayan (29:13.388)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (29:23.206)

So now let's build a skill set in the parent to navigate that conversation in a way that the child can feel validated, but we're also not bad mouthing the other parent, right? Because we want to be super clear on that and make sure we're validating this child's emotions and things like that. So there's time for my daughter comes to me. And this is what I tell other parents too, like you're welcome to say things like, I'm so sorry you had to hear that, or I'm really sorry that was your experience. And how do you think about that? What do you feel about that?

Rayan (29:32.398)

Yeah. Right.

AJ Gajjar (29:51.11)

things like that, let's really shift the conversation and focus it back onto the child as opposed to focusing on what the other parent said, didn't say, did, didn't do.

Rayan (30:01.038)

We're helping the child process early, right? Like we want them to be able to make sense of what's going on.

AJ Gajjar (30:01.574)

Absolutely.

Well, and I think that really opens up capacity for them to build their own critical thinking skills also. Right? And then moving forward, there's not a lot that you really have to say as far as, mommy's doing this wrong or daddy's doing this wrong or that's not true, right? Because parents sometimes get in this place of, well, I need to defend myself. I just need to defend myself, right? Because everything the other parent is saying is a lie. And, you know, we really try and take a step back and like, you actually don't need to defend yourself.

Rayan (30:10.638)

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

Rayan (30:25.102)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (30:35.974)

You just have to stay very, very consistent in your own actions and in how you're showing up. And over time, your kid's going to see the difference. And they're going to see the reality for what it is. But all of that has to be done with that base foundation of that relationship first. You have a solid relationship with that kid. That's all that matters. And that's where you put all of your focus in. And then everything else comes afterwards. And everything else, including discipline and...

Rayan (30:39.566)

Mm -hmm.

AJ Gajjar (31:05.234)

expectations and rules and all of that stuff. It's not that they don't exist, it's just that it's going to look different in your household because of what these kids are struggling through, right?

Rayan (31:14.766)

Right. How would you manage those kinds of things, the expectations, the rules, the discipline between the two households or between the two parents?

AJ Gajjar (31:27.366)

So we're not even going to consider what is or isn't happening at the other parent's house, right? High conflict personalities, as I'm sure you know, right? They tend to parent in a very authoritarian sort of way, right? It's about power and control. It's top down. The child has no choice in voice. All of those things. So how we're going to navigate it on our end, again, is we're going to put the relationship first. We're going to give the child choice and voice.

and we're going to give them a lot of flexibility for their own emotional expression and what they need and what they don't need, right? Expectations, rules, boundaries, all of that is present, but it's going to be a little bit more, quite a bit more fluid than at the other parent's house, right? Because that's what these kids are needing. So we need to, in order for us to be able to recreate that safety for them, let's focus on the dynamic between the relationship. Let's focus on reestablishing the safety.

Rayan (32:12.366)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (32:25.606)

And then we bring in the rules and the boundaries slowly once they return back home to us. Because they're not going to come in, they're not going to go from living in a very rigid box to now also living in a very narrow rigid box, right? So a lot of the time parents will just give an example like transition days. Transition days are tough, right? Super tough. And parents are like, well, these are my rules, boundaries, expectations for transition days. And I'm like,

Rayan (32:46.03)

Yeah. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (32:54.064)

Unfortunately for these kids, I encourage rules, boundaries, transitions to become very, very loose on transition day. In my personal household, they're pretty much thrown out the window because depending on the mood with which my daughter's coming home in, depending on what her affect is like, then we determine, okay, how hard can I push today? How hard can I not? What are the expectations? What are the rules, right?

Expectations and rules as far as you come home, you empty your backpack, you empty your lunch kit, you do A, B, C, and D. Every other day of the week, those are the expectations. Transition day, if she does it, great. If she doesn't do it, I am not calling her out on it. Right? So it's really, it's about being attuned with where your kid's at. It's about being aware of where their emotions are at. And once you get them regulated again,

Rayan (33:34.702)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (33:49.456)

then that's when we reintroduce the boundaries, expectations and rules. There's no point in having all of those things if your child's dysregulated.

Rayan (33:57.678)

Well, it's not gonna fly, right? Like it's just not gonna happen regardless.

AJ Gajjar (34:00.294)

No, and it's just gonna make things worse for everyone.

Rayan (34:04.078)

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think too sometimes when children are dysregulated, a lot of times adults perceive it as being disobedient or like, you're just not listening to me. Like what is going on? Why are you acting this way? Just because of how big the emotional reaction is, right? Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (34:17.766)

us.

AJ Gajjar (34:26.662)

Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you brought that up because that's one thing I talk to parents about. And I'm like, we really in those moments have to take a step back and recognize it's actually not about us at all. Right? Like at all, it's not about us. Like if we take a glimpse into the lives of these kids and what environment they just came back from. Like none of that, none of what's happening and none of

Rayan (34:38.734)

of course. Yeah.

Rayan (34:49.934)

Mm -hmm.

AJ Gajjar (34:55.238)

how they're expressing themselves right now likely has anything to do with you, right? It's all residual stuff coming out from the other parent's house. And kind of going back to that abuse conversation, right? It's so difficult within our systems to be able to prove sexual or physical abuse, right? What we look at with these kids is emotional and psychological abuse by and far. No one's even gonna touch that, right? So let's...

Rayan (34:57.518)

Yeah.

Rayan (35:20.738)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (35:23.974)

take that for what it is. We know these kids are coming from a very unhealthy environment and let's get them regulated first and then we can slowly start to build those boundaries, expectations and rules back in. And then unfortunately, guess what? That's by day six and then by day seven, they're gone again. So we're kind of, it's kind of cyclical, but kind of not because the way we really want to enhance and build their resiliency is so that we're constantly moving them forward.

Rayan (35:36.974)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (35:43.886)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (35:53.774)

every single time we have them.

Rayan (35:55.758)

Right, we're really just prioritizing safety every time we have them. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (35:58.998)

Absolutely.

Rayan (36:02.83)

We've been talking about this for a little bit, but I kind of just want to highlight some things for people who might be watching or listening. What would you say are unique challenges to children navigating a high conflict divorce as opposed to, you know, some of those more clean cut divorces where it's like, this is what we get and this is what we're doing and this is when you see your other parents and all of that kind of stuff.

AJ Gajjar (36:27.942)

These kids, there's very little flexibility in their world. So when I look at a very healthy co -parenting dynamic, a lot of the times there's a lot of fluidity in that relationship. Mom and dad are very open to, you know what, John doesn't want to spend the, excuse me, John doesn't want to spend the evening here today, can you just come to your house? Great, absolutely, I'll pick him. You don't have that kind of fluidity.

Rayan (36:32.366)

Mm.

AJ Gajjar (36:56.198)

in this relationship. It's extremely rigid. So even if a child comes to you and says, hey, I actually don't want to go to dad's house today, mommy. I'm sorry, kiddo. You are needing to go, right? And it's over time that they do come to terms with that rigidity. Or if they're at the other parent's house and they're like, you know what? I want to pick up the phone and call mommy when it's not time to call mommy. A fluid dynamic, a healthy co -parenting dynamic, you're like, absolutely, you can call your mom anytime. In this situation, you cannot, right? You have to look for very specific times.

Rayan (37:20.43)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (37:26.008)

Everything is organized, everything is laid out very, very specifically. The other thing I've seen with these kids is they struggle with change. They really, really do not like unexpected changes happening. They do tend to struggle with anxiety. I think a lot of that comes from that they have such a lack of choice in voice at the other parent's house. They do as they're told, they stay very quiet.

Rayan (37:51.982)

that rigidity again.

AJ Gajjar (37:53.702)

It's that rigidity, yeah. And what I tell parents too is what we have to recognize is when they're with the unhealthy parent, by and large, they're living in their trauma response, right? They're living in their fawn response. And when they're in that fawn response, they tend to get very small, they get quiet, they get complacent, they wanna stay off the radar of the other parent, and they just wanna make it back to their safe environment. So...

Yeah, that's a lot of what I see with them is that lack of... Sometimes you want to call it, it's almost like a lack of adaptability, but it's not really, right? Because it's so rigid over there, they have no choice in voice. So then when they come back, it takes time for them to kind of recognize that they actually have a little bit of power in choice and voice here. You're gonna see power struggles too, when they come back to the healthy parents' house.

Rayan (38:31.822)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rayan (38:46.222)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (38:52.998)

and things like that.

Rayan (38:54.702)

Yeah, it's so sad. I feel so sad for kids who have to navigate divorce in general. It's just so sad for them. But to navigate a high conflict divorce or a divorce that's a little bit less attuned to their needs is so sad, so heartbreaking. I'm curious, and I don't know if you work with these kids or not, or if you have any idea, but what happens when we're not?

doing all of the things that you're saying, so like prioritizing their safety upon their return and being really flexible with them and prioritizing their voice and the relationship and that. What are the consequences maybe if we're not treating these things?

AJ Gajjar (39:37.734)

So if we want to look at long -term consequences of kids of high conflict divorce, if we don't do something about it right now and really show up in the way that they need us to be showing up, what research shows is you're looking at higher risks of anxiety, depression, mental illness, suicidal ideation, risky behaviors, addictions. Like it's all over the map, right? It's not all over the map, but it's very, very consistent long -term negative outcomes for these kids, right?

Rayan (39:46.978)

Yeah.

Rayan (39:59.63)

Thank you.

Rayan (40:04.844)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (40:04.856)

Low self -esteem, low self -worth, low self -love, low self -efficacy, low self -esteem. None of those things, when we put them together and we look at them on that trajectory, none of those things are going to lead to kids leading a successful, confident life. The one thing I, and the main reason I got into doing this work was when I discovered all those long -term negative consequences, I thought to myself, this is not...

anything that I want for my daughter. And I don't want her to end up in trauma therapy for the rest of her life. Right? I want her to be able to actually just go out and live her life and go get the job that she wants and the career that she wants and the education that she wants and just go live her life without having to spend all of her time and money and resources on therapy forever. Right? And if you're looking at these kids who are going to be adults with higher rates of

Rayan (40:36.814)

Yeah.

Rayan (40:51.47)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (41:03.514)

you know, mental health challenges, higher rates of physical challenges, because everything they're experiencing is considered, you know, an ace as far as the ACE study goes, which leads to long -term negative physical challenges also, then what chance do these kids have?

Rayan (41:19.438)

Yeah. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (41:21.126)

right? But I mean, that and that's the positive of it, right? The positive of it, the flip positive side to it is if we do put these interventions in place, and we start showing up differently for these kids, we can actually shift that trajectory for them, right? They don't have to go down that path.

Rayan (41:37.294)

Right, right, right. So maybe we can talk a little bit about what that work does look like. So where do we begin? I know you say, and I guess this is the way that you phrase it, but like relationship first, right? Choice and voice, I think, is another thing that you've said a few times. So how do we begin to cultivate that?

AJ Gajjar (42:05.446)

So I give quite a few tips and tricks when I work with parents. And one of the main ones that I tell them is, first and foremost, you have to regulate yourself. Despite anything that's happening out there, we have to regulate ourselves first. And make sure, the number one thing is to make sure that you are regulated the day that kid comes home. Because they're coming from an unsafe environment, we have to reestablish safety.

Rayan (42:27.886)

Mm.

AJ Gajjar (42:34.982)

We can't do that if we're dysregulated, right? So let's do that first. And then one of the tips that I give parents really is there's the three by three rule. I didn't come up with it as something I borrowed from, I think it was the Institute of Child Psychology. And it's connecting with your kids for three minutes, three times a day. That's it, let's just start there.

Right? And it's, it is so interesting to see the shifts that'll happen once you start doing that. Right? So the three most important times a day that you want to connect with these kids is first thing in the morning when you wake them up for three minutes, undistracted, no screen time, none of that. Right? Just undivided attention. And then anytime you've had a separation, so they've gone to school, you've gone to work. When you reconnect at the end of the day, same thing, three minutes, undivided attention for them. And then three minutes right before bed.

And when you start doing that consistently, you will start seeing that shift in them, right? And I tell parents sometimes implementing a lot of different things is challenging. So if you've got to start with one, you start with the end of the day, connect with them for three minutes right before bedtime, and they're going to sleep better. They will sleep regulated, and they're going to wake up in a better emotional state. And that's what we're going to do.

Rayan (43:51.566)

Right.

AJ Gajjar (43:53.638)

The other thing to really help establish that safety piece and that relationship is to maintain as much consistency as possible for them. In your home environment, in your relational environment, like what does your home environment look like when they come back, right? And even like really tiny things like don't move the furniture around when they're gone.

Rayan (44:13.934)

Okay.

AJ Gajjar (44:15.302)

Like really, really little things like that because it's happened with my daughter, it's happened with a bunch of kids whose parents I work with. For some reason, it just completely throws them off.

Rayan (44:29.742)

Wow, I would have never thought of that actually.

AJ Gajjar (44:31.558)

Yeah, it's little things like that that you just don't think of, right? Planning ahead, make sure we're planning ahead and giving these kids lots of notice. So they need to know what's coming. They need to know if there's a change happening. They need to know why the change is happening, what's going to happen otherwise, right? They need to know all of these things. And sometimes it gets a little challenging because it's like, why do you need to know all this stuff? But it helps them feel safe and have those expectations, right? And then the last thing I'll leave you with is,

Rayan (44:53.262)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (45:00.838)

something that Dr. Gordon -Niefeld teaches and it's about creating a bridge, right? We always wanna close that loop for these kids. So it could be something as simple as putting them to bed at night. Good night, kiddo, I love you. I will see you tomorrow morning when we're dropping them off at school. Have a great day. I will see you at 3 .30.

Rayan (45:14.03)

Yeah.

Rayan (45:20.046)

That's crazy, yeah.

AJ Gajjar (45:20.998)

Right? Just that expectation of knowing when they're going to see you again. The most important time I would say to do that is when they're going off to the other parent's house. See you kiddo. I will, you know, have a great time. Maybe don't say have a great time depending on where they're at. Because they will pick up on if you're lying to them, right? But I will see you Thursday at five o 'clock. Right? Or if there's a phone call in between then.

Rayan (45:39.374)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (45:46.502)

latch onto the phone call. You know, I'm going to give you a call on Tuesday at three o 'clock. I'll see you then, right? They just need that consistency and that expectation of when they're going to be able to see you.

Rayan (45:56.558)

Right. A moment of safety. Like they need something to hold them over until that next moment of safety. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Those are such great tips though. And like you said, it's like little things that are so easy to do, like easy to do once you've built it up as a habit, right? Like little things that your kid can really hold onto and come to expect and know that you will provide to them, which is very important.

AJ Gajjar (46:00.982)

Absolutely. They have to hold on to something.

AJ Gajjar (46:16.294)

Yes.

Rayan (46:26.094)

The last thing I guess that I'm really curious is how do we know that we need to...

we need or how do we know that our child is struggling? Like what are the signs? What are we looking for? How might we know that we need to do something about it?

AJ Gajjar (46:46.694)

I would honestly say across the board, if you feel like you were in a high conflict situation and there's children involved, they are struggling. How that's going to look, depending on your children, is going to be probably a little bit different. Or not. What I see, you know what, that's not true. Consistently what I see across the board is you're likely going to see excessive behaviors when they return home from the other parent's house. Because there is a lot of emotional energy.

Rayan (46:53.358)

Okay.

AJ Gajjar (47:14.534)

that's being discharged when they come back to a safe environment. So you will see a lot of very excessive behaviors. You will see a lot of heightened emotions. You will see a lot of that stuff, right? And what I tell parents is don't be afraid of it. Let it happen. Let them get it out, but make sure they're doing it in a safe way. And what that looks like from a developmental perspective is going to change depending on how old the kid is, right?

Rayan (47:37.038)

Hold on.

AJ Gajjar (47:44.422)

So when my daughter was six, when she was coming back home from her dad's house, I was seeing, and this is a very nonviolent kid, like she's never been violent in her life. And I would see a ton of kicking, crying, screaming, shoving, punching, spitting, all directed at me. All directed at me, right? Lasting anywhere from like two to three hours to sometimes it was like on and off two to three days, right? It's just that dysregulation piece. So.

Rayan (48:00.846)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (48:13.194)

give a lot of time and space for those heightened behaviors and heightened emotions. Because you will see a lot of...

Rayan (48:18.766)

Right, so really looking for things that are like out of proportion. Right, ma 'am?

AJ Gajjar (48:22.63)

Yes. On either end though, right? Because if you have a kid who is well regulated and you know kind of how they normally present, so excessive behaviors and heightened emotions, that's one side of it. The other side of it is that withdrawal piece, right? And they get very, very quiet and they just go to their room and they sit there and that's it, right? Now again, developmentally, if they're teenagers, that might actually be totally normal. Just go in and check in on them.

Rayan (48:35.47)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (48:51.014)

make sure they're okay, make sure they're not withdrawing more considerably than they would normally, things like that, right? And a lot of it is for parents to get really clear on what they believe is the normal presentation for their kids. Whatever is outside the norm is signaling that something's up.

Rayan (49:16.046)

Right, right. That's totally fair. I agree. I think because we can either go into the hyper arousal, right? Where we have a lot of energy and we need to get rid of that energy or we go to the hypo arousal where we don't want to or not that we don't want to, but we just don't have anything else going on. So looking for either way, I guess, excessive behavior in either end of the spectrum is kind of what you would say. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (49:40.646)

Yes.

Rayan (49:46.606)

That is great. This has been such a good conversation. I've really enjoyed talking about, well, I mean, a very sad topic, but also like a very important topic to talk about, right? What is it that you would say for people who are listening and watching? What do they need to know about high conflict divorces and children navigating a high conflict divorce?

AJ Gajjar (50:10.31)

It's challenging, it's difficult, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

And always put your relationship with that kid first outside of everything else. Just show up for them in the way they need you to show up for them because that's the crux of what they need.

Rayan (50:20.558)

Yeah.

Rayan (50:27.726)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (50:33.55)

I love that. I think it's so true for even for adults even right like we really need that connection. We need somebody that we feel that connected to and for kids even more so I would argue.

AJ Gajjar (50:34.79)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (50:44.358)

Yes, absolutely. And if you can, find a support group or find other people that understand what you're going through. Because there's not many of us out there and it's challenging. And if you're not connecting with the right people, you're setting yourself up for more secondary abuse and that's not helpful to anybody. So try and find some people who actually you can connect with.

Rayan (50:51.566)

Mm. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (51:12.134)

And I'm just gonna let you know my daughter and I have started a play group called Team Brave for children of high conflict divorce. So we're here in town in Okotoks, we meet at the point every week. So if you have kids between the ages of seven and 11, bring them down there. It's Tuesdays and or Thursday depending on the week from four to 430.

Rayan (51:16.11)

Yeah.

Rayan (51:32.878)

Okay.

I love that, that's beautiful. And is that just like a drop in, like you can show up any time?

AJ Gajjar (51:40.358)

show up anytime, it's just a drop in. That came out because I was having a conversation with my kid and what I discovered was despite how prevalent divorce is in our community, children don't seem to be talking about it. And they seem to think that they're all alone and nobody else understands them and nobody else gets it. So I thought, you know what, we gotta get these kids together. They don't specifically have to talk about anything heavy. But let's get them together in a group so that they know that all the kids here actually understand each other.

Rayan (51:42.668)

Yeah.

Rayan (51:52.238)

Yeah.

Rayan (51:58.574)

Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (52:10.36)

understand what they're going through and then just get them to connect.

Rayan (52:10.67)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

I love that, I love that. So there's this group, is it ongoing then? Is it just kind of like open -ended? You know? Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (52:22.182)

It's ongoing. We're going to see kind of how it goes. I would like to bring in like a little more structure to it eventually. Right now, I'm just, it's very free flowing right now because that's what the kids need. And it provides them space and opportunity to connect with each other, do a bunch of activities. The point is a really great place where there's just so much for them to do and stay engaged and then just build their relationships first. And then we'll focus on other things afterwards.

Rayan (52:43.97)

Yeah.

Rayan (52:48.344)

Incredible, incredible, I love it. So there's this group for the kiddos, how else can we get a hold of you if we need your help and your services?

AJ Gajjar (52:56.528)

Yeah, absolutely. So my website is the trauma healing parent .com. And then to get in touch with me directly, you can just email me at AJ at the trauma healing parent .com and you can find me on Facebook also.

Rayan (53:10.19)

Incredible. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your insight. You are doing God's work, dude.

AJ Gajjar (53:18.374)

Thank you and you also. It's not easy, but I mean, I'm glad there's those of us out there that want to do it.

Rayan (53:25.454)

Totally, yeah, totally. I think it is very, very much a niche, but it's so needed. It's so important. It's such important work. And I'm glad that you guys are here and that you're local and that you are so open to working with it because it's just, it's a lot. Yeah.

AJ Gajjar (53:32.678)

Yes, so important.

AJ Gajjar (53:42.214)

It is, it's a lot. Thank you so much today. This was a great conversation.

Rayan (53:46.574)

This was great. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much. We will leave all of your information in the description. We'll also probably tag you in it. All of that kind of stuff so everybody can find you. And hopefully the people that need the support are able to access the support. Thank you. Thank you so much.

AJ Gajjar (54:03.91)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, thank you so much.