unfiltered therapists podcast Episode transcripts

Hannah (00:00.107)

Okay, well we're here on Unfiltered Therapists and I have a very special guest today that I'm super excited to talk to. This is Marin. Marin, do you want to tell the people?

Why you're here? Yeah, I am. Why are you here? Yeah. Yeah. I am an MSW student. I'm doing my master's in social work at U of C. I met Allegra, who started this Kindred Roots space. She was one of my professors. Well, I don't know if she goes by professor, but I consider her a professor during my first practicum. And my...

practicum project I found to be very interesting and we had a conversation about it and so Allegra yeah prompted us to connect and share some space together so definitely so yeah I would love to be able to share a little bit about my practicum it feels like it was a long time ago now even though it was only I think it concluded like a month or two months ago wow but a lot has happened since then.

the program is intensive and it's a lot of learning and unlearning. And yeah, I'm excited to see how it comes out. Yeah. that's so cool. Yeah. So I guess on my end, yeah, Allegra said, I know this girl and I just feel like you guys are really going to connect super well, especially over, you know, your interest in like decolonizing the therapy space and.

you know, Indigenous issues and interests in Indigenous cultures. And I was like, hell yeah. So I met Marin very briefly over Zoom one day. And yeah, I was like, yeah, I have to have you on the podcast. And we have to talk about this stuff. So super, super exciting. It's my first podcast episode. So hello, everyone. I'm Hannah. I'm a student here at Kindred Roots. And I'm not on social media. So.

Hannah (02:21.739)

don't see a lot of me on the online space. So, you know, know, Kerri Ann created a Kindred Roots student account for me. And like, occasionally well post if I remember to send her content, but I'm one of the less seen members of Kindred Roots, I think. So it's cool to be here and be in the space. And yeah, so one of the things we talked about to get started is, yes, you're going to lead us through some

grounding and the land acknowledgement and we can talk a little bit about that. Great. Yeah. I am going to pull up a phone for this part because I want to do it well. Love that. And yeah, I like when I'm doing the land acknowledgement, I like to also incorporate some grounding because for me, not just for me, I think in general, a common consensus is that land acknowledgement is about

really being connected and being aware of the land that you are literally living on. And as someone who uses a lot of somatic work, embodiment work, mindfulness work, I find it to be really supportive to not just hear words and theories and concepts, but to practice really noticing it in your body and being with it. So, so for

Anyone watching, you can join along. Please do. And I'll offer you as well, if it feels good to close your eyes or place your feet on the ground. yeah. Grounding can look and feel many different ways. So as I move through this, I'll just see questions and offers. And if anyone already knows what feels really grounding, please go ahead and do that.

Take in these words. Yeah. Love that. All right. Well, I'm gonna get myself into a somewhat of a grounded position as well. So perhaps a few breaths for a few moments to bring your attention, whether it's towards your feet or towards the parts of your body that are supported by the floor or a chair.

Hannah (04:48.299)

I like to, as I'm feeling the ground beneath me, on an inhale, imagining or feeling so I can breathe in some of the earth or the grounded energy into my body. And as I exhale, seeing if I can go into the support that is right here already.

And as we focus on that, we'll open ourselves to receive these words.

In the spirit of reconciliation with this land and the people who cared for her long before us, I humbly acknowledge that I am the descendant of settlers who in many ways benefit from the devastation and harm of colonization. I am also a settler who is committed to continue learning about this land, the multitude of diverse Indigenous peoples and cultures, and do what I can to actively engage in education,

and action of decolonization. I am here today living and learning in what is colonially known as Calgary, Alberta, on Treaty 7 land, home of Métis Nation District 5 and 6 of the Battle River territory, home of the Sixikate -Satapi or Blackfoot Confederacy, consisting of Kaina, Kani, and Sixika, the Susina Nation,

and the Stony Nakoda Nations, which includes Genokee First Nation, Bears Paw First Nation, and Good Stony First Nation.

Hannah (06:27.595)

So as we settle into this space, I also want to acknowledge that as I'm reading that, I'm also aware that actually we're in Okotoks. So my land acknowledgement is very much obviously about where I live in Calgary. And it's a work in progress. It's something that continues to the way I write it out or do it.

changes and evolves is that I continue learning and my pronunciation has gotten better, but it is by no means where it will be eventually. Yeah, so there's still lots to learn, but as I said, I'm very committed to doing the work to be a part of communities of people who are engaging in decolonization. I love that. And you know, actually, well, one thing I want to tell you is that when you started your land acknowledgement, I go,

chills. I got tingles. Which is, it's, I think land acknowledgement right now is a very powerful topic for me. Because it's something that I've been struggling with in my other job. And just something I think, you know, we all come as people who are settlers who are interested in decolonizing the space, I think it is something we all come to learn about in our own way. You know, sort of the...

almost the art of land acknowledgement, I think we could call it. And so I've met, I've been met with some pretty severe resistance to the way I give land acknowledgements in the past, which is good. They're very similar to yours. Of course, I'm on Treaty Six territory when I give them, but I gave one recently at a meeting and I was met with this very disheartening response of like, well, that was a bit much.

And someone even said something like, well, that wasn't the full Snow's version, was it? And I was so deeply offended. And like you said, each time I give one, I do actually rewrite it. I put a lot of thought and work into it and acknowledge my own role in colonization and in truth and reconciliation as a settler and to have the other people in the room.

Hannah (08:53.163)

were all settlers, respond that way. Just, man, it went out of my skills. Like, I felt so disappointed. And no one came to be like, hey, like, let's settle down here. Like, they've all just looked at me like I had three heads and couldn't believe that that was how I gave a landing note. And I was like, wow, there's a lot of learning to be had here. And so now it's...

Obviously it's National Indigenous Peoples Month. So in my role at work, I communicated there's a lot going on, a lot of education you can enroll in. And one of the things I said though was there's actually a really cool lesson on land acknowledgement that you can attend. But it's been a journey. I remember the first time I ever heard of land acknowledgement was in probably like my third, fourth year of university. I never heard one before. And I was like,

is interesting, but truth and reconciliation was really starting to become more, you know, common culture and I was learning more about it. This is of course coming from someone who I didn't know residential schools existed until I was 18 years old. Yeah, I was a lot older before I had heard anything about it. Yeah, it's a lot of unlearning. Yes, yeah. And so, you know, I've always

had a bit of curiosity around landed acknowledgement and more specifically around how the first ones I heard felt quite performative to me. They were very like, here are a bunch of names of a bunch of tribes that I know nothing about and can't pronounce and you know what I mean and that's it. And moving on. And I was like, yeah, so what's the point? You know, not from a resistance.

perspective, but like, what are we doing here? Why are we doing this? And, and then I was learning from quite a few people, some of them, you know, elders of the Blackfoot community who were teaching at U of C at the time, which was so cool. And they, they actually were resisting this sort of check, let's all give land acknowledgments thing. And so I went through a bit of my life thinking land acknowledgments were quite silly.

Hannah (11:15.947)

Because I'm like, well, that's what Reg said and he's what? But as I grew and learned more, I realized that it wasn't the acknowledgement of the land that was silly. It was the way we were doing it. And the intention behind it felt inauthentic. Yeah, yeah. I totally get that. Yeah. A few things I've learned along the way about land.

acknowledgments that I didn't actually include in this because knowing the context, I knew we were going to talk about it. And like you, it's different every single time I do it because I'm thinking about what's my role and what needs to be included here and what will be talked about after. So a couple of things that I tend to bring in is talking about my personal relationship with the land around me. So I often will bring in...

when I think about where I feel a deep connection and reverence of the land, like Nosehill Park or down by the Nogue River. Yeah, those are two places in general that I will go and move my body or be in stillness and really feel like spiritual experiences in those areas and they feel very special to me. So that's me acknowledging that I do have a relationship with the land in many ways.

And the other piece that I sometimes bring in is being really clear on which truth and reconciliation act that I'm actively working on. And generally for me, it's around like education. I'm still very much in the place of actively learning. And I hope I always am. There's still a whole bunch to learn. But that's the core part. It's one of the 94.

actions is to be engaging in education, to learn more about colonial history, about the Truth and Reconciliation Acts in general, Indigenous past, present, future. And that's, I feel really lucky in many ways right now because being MSW student, while there could be more involvement of Indigenous ways of being, I do

Hannah (13:41.835)

want to acknowledge that the university, well everyone always will be doing more. And as a university, it's still an institution that has many things that are not okay, the way that they operate. But there's been a great effort around inclusion and bringing in more readings, research, speakers. Some professors do it more than others, but it's, so I'm surrounded by it right now. And...

And while there's a long list of readings for reclass, I steer towards the ones that are around more alternative ways of knowing. Alternative is an interesting way to describe it because it's really just trying to get away from the dominant narrative. So it's not really alternative, it's different. And that's so important and valuable. As someone who's come more in there to terms with my own.

learning how to really embody and love these aspects of me that for a long time I've kind of fallen into the framework of like needing to regulate these parts of me or doing what I can to be able to fit in as much as possible and through my more anti -colonial approach to social work.

and education in general, it's actually been really healing for me to start recognizing that I've also internalized all of these narratives in society that tells me I should be a certain way. And it's, yeah, it's been really liberating, actually, to recognize that I also embody myself. Yeah, absolutely. No, and that is such a powerful realization to have. And having that while still

in that education phase is it also comes with sort of that hope because you know we're not done. There's more. And I think it's, I like that you said, you know, I hope I'm never out of this act of educating yourself and educating others because I don't think we really are ever done. I think that's something about through reconciliation that we need to remember is like it isn't a checklist.

Hannah (16:04.299)

Right. It's not like, well, I've done that. You have to be doing that. Do it. You know? I don't think it was really, this is an assumption. The beginning when we really started recognizing truth and reconciliation and doing a lot of acknowledgement, how important that was. You know, when I look back on this, I think getting to the point first where it was part of a checklist was almost actually an important part of the process.

And I don't think people knew what not to do until we started doing it. Yeah. And so I'm, yeah, I kind of, I think part of why I bring that up is when I think about this constant state of learning, it's also recognizing that there's a lot of things that collectively we don't know yet. totally. Because we're, you know, I often get this image of just like Bambi learning how to walk. Yeah. It's new. Yeah. You know,

away from what we've been normalized into. It just feels awkward and uncomfortable and makes me think of your colleagues that had an adverse reaction. To me, that's very much, you know, again, an assumption of them saying like this makes me uncomfortable and I don't know how to be with this. And so, you know, I'm going to point at you and say you did something wrong because I don't know how to like traverse through this territory. Absolutely.

Yeah, and there was this interesting narrative that came up through that, where one of the things I said in that acknowledgement at the time was about, you know, we have to acknowledge when we're talking about truth and reconciliation, truth is acknowledging the history. And given that we are mental health professionals, and we work with people with, you know, very, you know, severe histories of

trauma and intergenerational trauma and addiction. And I said, we must acknowledge the truth of what occurred on this land. You know, not just acknowledge that we stand on this land today, but what happened here. And, you know, the violence and the atrocities. And one of the people in the room said something like, I guess I'm just a violent settler. And I went, kinda.

Hannah (18:25.803)

That reaction was not a stretch, but it was this weird sort of, like this dichotomy had been created, you know, and we couldn't just sit with that. It was either I rejected or I fully accepted and I, you know, those words came to my mind of, you know, what are they thinking about me when I got that sort of white savior, you know, vibe.

Yeah. And one of the things I thought about when I thought we were going to have this conversation is I wanted to ask you, like, what are your feelings on that phrase? And like, have you heard that run around? And like, what do you think about that? Yeah. So my first kind of I had heard about it and learned about it in class, but I hadn't had like a whole relationship with it yet in some ways until I started my Practicum project.

And the title of the attraction project evolved over time, but the premise of it was, well, In the end, the title was a heart -centered approach to deconstructing colonial consciousness from the inside out. So the whole project was really about kind of similar, actually, to what you just described about your colleagues. How can we ground ourselves, support each other in remaining grounded?

as we approach loaded conversations, difficult conversations around colonization and race and coming from a white body. For me, that was very much part of it is recognizing that as I was learning, I would try to have conversations with some other white body people in my life and talk about white privilege, white supremacy and get very sometimes defensive or sometimes

never grappling with that before confusion, sometimes a little bit of pushback. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was surprised by it, but I, I just got really curious about it. Okay. I, I believe that we have a very protective system and these are ways to protect ourselves. Being defensive, being in denial, avoiding. And, and so that's.

Hannah (20:52.555)

what really started this practicum and wanting full responsibility of it's less about you're the problem. How do I you know, that's one of the things I've learned from internal family system I've been practicing in a few years is each time I find myself this to go, yeah, what's going on inside of me? Yeah. No, what's arising within me? What am I?

coming from this, how can I take responsibility that I'm modeling a way of being rather than trying to control, tell other people what to do. Which doesn't work. It doesn't work, you know that. Yeah, it doesn't work. So I still have the same desire of wanting to influence my circle, but doing it in a much more passionate and heart centered way. And really leading by example is ultimately that's what the work is.

I want to understand it. I want to evolve. Yeah so

white satirism. So as I was going through this process, I was sharing with some of my classmates about, you know, this work around decolonization and as a group collectively, we've also been kind of grappling with, you know, those of us who are identified as white -bodied individuals. What's our role in this? And how do we do this in a way that's not disrespectful? Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of hesitation, even fear around messing up. Yeah.

causing more harm, right? And while I feel that, my temperament is also a little bit on the risky side. And I have a very developed self -compassion practice, which I'd love to get into as well, because things are shifting around self -compassion. But it's helped me a lot in times when I do feel I've made a little mistake, I've made someone upset to really get into recognizing, hey, my intentions were good.

Hannah (22:56.171)

My desire is in this area to not perpetuate harm. I did cause harm. I need to feel that. I need to really allow myself to feel it, but also tend to it and soothe it and nurture it and remind myself I'm human and I'm going to make mistakes. Easier said than done. But I had one of my classmates reach out at one point when I'd been sharing some things about the decolonizing work.

and even shifting the language occasionally, just deconstructing colonial consciousness. And she asked me, you know, I can't remember her words exactly, but it was something along the lines of, you know, what are you doing here to be mindful of white saviorism? What a question. Yeah. And I, I don't know. Yeah. So I had to look into it a little bit and I had taken a, it was very synchronous. I hopped onto a webinar, this woman, Kim Young.

of the US was talking about white saviorism in particular and she basically said that you know if you're all talk and no action that's a form of white saviorism. And I recognize that point. Well I am a lot of talk right now because I'm learning and I'm trying to construct how I'm going to engage in this work in a respectful way.

way. And I know with a baby bird, with a recently blindfold taken off and like overstimulated to this world that I had not seen until very recently. So with that, I fully acknowledged throughout this practicum, I wrote a blog post every week as a way to kind of keep my process coherent and share along the way. And so I spoke specifically to the White Savior as a piece and I acknowledged I am a lot of talk right now.

But I'm saying this right now to hold myself accountable and allow other people to hold me accountable. But to truly engage in any type of anti -oppressive work, it does require action. It requires pulling up against the systems that are oppressing people and doing the work to help dismantle it. And I'm now at the point where I feel I am engaging in more of an active work a little bit more.

Hannah (25:20.331)

I'll mention one of the things that I, you know, with the pro -Palestine protests and the encampment that was on our campus, I had a moment with one of my friends, fellow students, he's a BSW student at U of C who has Palestinian roots. And I was, I wrote a letter, I started writing a letter to the university about my disappointment with how they,

behaved, how they responded to encampments and invited my fellow students to get involved in it. And at one point I sent it to my friend Daniel and just asked if I'd be willing to read it. And then I had a conversation with him. I acknowledged it again. I hope that didn't come across as like this white, savioristic, like, hey, I wrote a letter. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome. That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing to help. Yeah. Yeah.

And he was so, he's so lovely in so many ways, but what he said, like he laughed a little bit and he said the fact that you even just acknowledged it tells me that it wasn't white saviorism. So I think that's become the lesson in a lot of things for me is like, just name it. Yeah. Acknowledge it. Yeah. Speak to it. Speak to it. Yeah. Like it's in the room already. Absolutely. And if we can have a conversation about it and invite it in, welcome it. Yeah.

loses power in a sense and it's something that we're now engaging with instead of trying to not be with which actually makes it a problem. Yeah, no that's such a good point and I think that is a piece that I struggle with in my anti -aggressive work. It's interesting when you said you know as soon as I'm pointing a finger I gotta point it back and in this office we've actually recently at Kindred Roots

a shadow work training. Okay. And it's interesting, like when, because that's what it's about. Shadow work is about the things you see or the things you're worried about really taking a minute to go, why is this important to me? Yeah. What does this say about me? Right. And, you know, it is interesting to reflect a little on what is so scary about being perceived that way, perceived as a white savior.

Hannah (27:44.143)

especially to those people in my life who identify as Indigenous. What would it mean if they were to see my efforts and my actions as that? And I mean, it would be heart -breaking. And how does that feel in your body to even imagine that? Like, ick. Like tense and gross because that's God. I hate to be perceived that way.

get that. But it's interesting to reflect on like why. Because if we know like you know what you've just explained is that if we can invite us in and and look at what is my intention what do I know about what I'm doing? Yeah. You know and and who is this important for? You know it is important for everyone. Yeah. But I like that you you draw a lot of of the focus and the intention to actually just

your own learning and what you know is true. And, you know, talking about performative, it's, you know, I've had this realization that I think sometimes my fear around doing the action, you know, actually taking the action is being perceived as doing it performatively. How it'll be perceived. Yeah. You know, as you're sharing this, I'm reminded that

So it's kind of similar even to how you described one of your colleagues responding of like, I guess I'm just like a barbarian. Like, you know, and that's part of the dualistic paradigm that our culture thrives on. So, you know, when it comes to white savorism, I would have a hard time believing that when you truly get to know somebody that you could just say through and through this person is a white savorist.

But it'll be moments in time when maybe, you know, a little, and again, I'll speak for myself, I could perceive the occasional action or the occasional thought as being perceived more on this spectrum towards white saviorism. That does not mean that I'm a white saviorist. No. Same as, you know, racism. Yeah. Right. I think that's where we can get really stuck in people getting defensive or not even wanting to take a look.

Hannah (30:06.251)

at where they might be behaving in ways that are racist because we get into this place of like, well, I'm not a racist. Or like, if I do that, then I am a racist. Right, it's not concrete. Yes, it's so much more nuanced than that. And I can say I've had thoughts or engaged in actions where in that split moment of time would be perceived as oppressive or racist or white savioristic. But why I don't get

stuck on that, and it hurts, of course, is because I reflect on it. I let myself feel it. I know deep down, I'm feeling it and it feels gross and I feel embarrassed and I want to do better, that that also matters. And that I'm continually learning and trying to do better. And I don't want to be, not only do I not want to judge or perceive myself from a moment in time,

I of course don't want other people to do that. No. Yeah, that's how a lot of people choose to categorize is seeing one action and seeing like that means you fit that box. You're right. And I think that, you know, I did mention briefly that I'm not on the social media space at the moment. And again, it is this perception thing. I don't sometimes I think I don't like being perceived.

But, you know, I think a lot of that dichotomy is so supported by things like cancel culture and social media. You do one bad thing and that's who you are. That's not true. We know that's not true. But that sort of way of thinking is just so pervasive on social media. And it's something that I have unsubscribed from. I think I've been off for about a year.

of the online space. There's a lot of benefit to that. God, I love it. Honestly, I love it and I don't want to go back. Because I know for myself, that's just not, that's not where I belong, I don't think. But it's amazing what, even though I've stepped out of that space, how much being in that space, I think still influences my way of thinking. Because it's like, really, I'm only perceived by those who see me in person, literally physically.

Hannah (32:32.587)

perceive me, but I still find myself so worried about those things. And I don't know if that's really because I care what they think about me or if I worry about the trouble it could cause me, especially at work. If people don't like what I have to say enough, who knows what could happen. I think so, but I know deep down these are things I want to.

take a stand with and do something about it. And, you know, I'm not going to shut up and not send me an email. Maybe I should, but, you know, moving, moving past that fear of what could happen if I do decide to take this action is very tricky. But it feels good. Like, you know, if we talk about what, what does that fear feel like, like this, but.

But deciding to hit send and say, I'm going to do what I feel is right in this moment, takes it all. It takes it down. It doesn't make me feel scared or worried. I have to remind myself that when I'm actually taking the action that I know I can take in anti -oppressive practice and in decolonizing this space, it actually feels good.

You get that, you get that, you get that. And it's helpful when you're not alone in it. Yes! Even writing this letter to our Dean, if it had just been me, it's possible that I would have allowed that initial desire to do something. I sat with it for a little bit, I didn't want it to be impulsive. My time writing it, I invited people in. If it had just been me,

I could see myself being like, I don't need to do it. But because there were other people involved and we were collaborating and we're going to sit down with our dean and have a conversation, it was just me again, I feel much different about it. But this is a small collective now, people who are coming together to support each other. That feels really good. It does. And I think that was actually a huge piece of what led me to.

Hannah (34:55.627)

really want to have this conversation with you and share it with those of us who follow Keep It Roots is that when you and I had our first conversation, it came at such a good time for me. Because I felt very just like, like we clicked and your work really validated the things that I had been feeling at, at even, you know, what did we talk for 20 minutes? Like, and, but I was just like, I'm not alone. And that gave me that.

that push to remember like, it does feel better when you know that, like, okay, I'm not by myself in this. And, you know, we don't work directly together, but just knowing I had someone who was like, yes, I get that. And, you know, I wanted to share that with our viewers and listeners, because I wonder if there aren't many people out there who follow figured routes or attend figured routes right there, who might need this push as well to know like, you're not alone and it's okay to do what you need to do.

Yeah, I really appreciate you say that. Yeah. So I think we're about halfway. All right. But I want to give you the opportunity to share more about your learning and what's happened since the last time we talked and, you know, some of these changes that you've kind of mentioned and yes, what's been going on? My brain has gone through a lot. Yeah. Like,

at least to very little paradigm shifts in terms of how I'm seeing the world. And it's been very discombobulating at times, exhausting at times. Not even just exhausting, but going through like really intense, activating periods of time. And then once my system finally starts to ground, then I feel immense exhaustion. Yeah. And...

What I'm appreciating about that process is everything I've done up to this point has actually taught me how to really turn towards what my body is saying and what it needs and just going with it. And it makes so the highs aren't as like impulsive or chaotic and the lows aren't as...

Hannah (37:19.851)

devastating. Yeah, I'm thinking even yesterday I had a point of a few days of really getting some exhaustion and when I was doing it yesterday afternoon, it was just, hey, I'm going to lay down on the floor and listen to some calming music and focus on my breath. Maybe do a little bit of movement, start a bit of movement. No, my body just wants to be still. I just laid on the floor for about 90 minutes and I felt great after. Yeah. And it's a privilege to be able to do that.

Absolutely. Yeah. But why I'm mentioning that is because for most of my upbringing, I resisted and analogized myself and internalized what laziness is or what success looks like, what progress looks like, what health looks like. And that was a huge detriment to myself because I would then get stuck in...

nervous in states because I didn't know how to honor them and be with them. So a big part of my practicum that really stands out at this point in time is how the English language in general is actually a part of perpetuating colonialism. I watched a webinar with this man, Chiocasin Ghost Horse.

from the Cheyenne River Lakota tribe. And he, so the webinar was called, he colonized your mind. Cool. Yes. Absolutely. And the huge focus of it was around language and how we are perpetuating the same colonial tenet and keeping ourselves in what he referred to as colonial block.

because we keep speaking it into reality. And he compared it to many Indigenous languages being verb based. And he would try to translate words or phrases on the Lakota language into English. And it was just, you know, he would have to talk like 15 minutes to try to do justice to what this word or this phrase was saying. It was so beautiful. And I just felt my...

Hannah (39:45.515)

I felt the ground beneath me begin to wobble and shatter. And at the same time, I lost my voice. Interesting. I can't remember the last time I lost, I don't know if I ever lost my voice, but I developed a cold, I lost my voice. I couldn't speak for a couple of days. And then I've just, since then, been much more mindful about...

the language that I'm using, the words, the terms of phrases that I use, that have violence embedded into them. And so I'm trying to speak slower and when I catch myself saying a phrase or a word that my body reacts to now, I, yeah, like I said before, I name it. And I'll say like, I don't want to say that anymore. It doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel necessary. And trying to invite in a new way of speaking that is more about...

interconnectivity and multiple ways of knowing and being mindful about dualistic language. So that was a really powerful thing that came from the practicum. There's so many things I could talk about when it comes to that practicum. It was big. And I'll encourage anyone who's interested. The blog is on my website and I've had a few presentations I did to share about

process with classmates and faculty at the university. But since then, this is what I find interesting right now. And my class, prior to what I was just, what I'm in right now, we had what I perceive to be my best professor so far. I didn't need to say that. He just was the right person at the right time, in a line.

really well with what I needed and how I learned. And he even said at one point, it was so helpful in many ways, but you know, one example is the way he started one of his classes by saying like, there's no such thing as a safe space. It's like, I'm not going to tell you the safe space. And he said often when people say it's a safe space, because they're not talking about what's uncomfortable, we're not going to do that. We're going to be in it. And everything he said about it, it actually made me feel super safe. Yeah.

Hannah (42:11.659)

And so I told that to him, I was like, actually, you know, you said this would be a safe space, but everything that we did, like that was, that is a safe space. And then he looked at me and he said, for you. And I was just like, yeah. Like for me, but I can't speak on behalf of all these other people in the room. I don't know what a safe space is for them. And look at me as a facilitator, I do one -on -one work, I do group work. I've been going in with this perception of.

this is how we create a safe space. What a... You know, like, I can't tell people to safe spaces for them. I can say what feels safe for me and I can invite people into that and be as collaborative and as creative as possible and learn from others. But I, so that was already like, whoa. I didn't even realize I was doing that. And another piece.

he did, he was talking about challenging us, like, why did you say that? What were you feeling right before you said that? It was, I was exhausted after this class. Yeah, which is a good thing. In a good way, yeah, really good way. But I was, yeah, mind -blowing. So again, in one of the first classes, we did a little exercise where we all stood up, taking turns, kind of reintroducing ourselves to the class and doing it in any way that we wanted.

seeing how people do it. And I can be a little mean and kind of take on this role of like, everyone else is uncomfortable, so I'm going to do something to help everyone. So everyone's a little nervous. This is like putting us on the spot. And he gives us like a few minutes to think about what are we going to present to the class. So I think on that if you want, I'm going to do something that's very regulating. Get them to connect with the breath.

You know, and so I, I volunteer, I'll go first. It's like, I'm going to set the stage for everyone. And I do this. I talk about regulation. I guide them into balancing the breath. I'm also quite activated at this point, feeling nervous. And I was not using very inclusive language, first of all, or suggestions or invitations, which I think I usually do. And then I, after doing that, I had this idea of like, how can everyone feel grounded?

Hannah (44:40.043)

And then I'll guide them through this exercise to get them moving and have some fun and really help shift the energy of the room. So I then, after doing this rounding, I introduced this game, it's like Rock, Paper, Scissors, Bear, Hunter, Ninja, just to be goofy. And then I'm like, hey, you ready? And no one in the class moves. They just stay seated. And I'm like, I didn't anticipate this. And so then I started.

Encouraged some people that have been moving like no, yeah, you don't have to or someone the class said they're like if we want to I was like, right. Yeah. Yes, like I'm not here to tell you what to do You know, I had It was a I had to really do a lot of compassion after this experience. I felt Yeah, it felt like that was a side of me that I a big part of my project in general was about noticing this

impulse, I'm uncomfortable to engage in tactics or like power over. I'll take control. Yeah. Right. I don't feel safe. So what can I do to make everybody else feel safe and grounded? I feel more safe. And that to me was very much that part of me coming out. And so why I told this story is that after that experience, my professor challenged me a little bit when he said,

He said something like, no, I don't even like, I don't like this concept of self -regulation. And I was like, what? Like I've never heard anyone say that before. So I was like, really? And he's like, well, even just like the word itself, like regulation, like regular. And my first reaction was, well, you just don't know very much about self -regulation. That was my initial reaction. He's like, well, that's a misunderstanding. That's not what self -regulation is. But I...

chose to be curious and I really was curious. Like, well, what's going on here? Like, I wanted to know more about why he had that perspective and he suggested that I look at the same as him. Never heard of it before. Everyone I've talked to has never heard of it before. It's been around for a long time, but it's not given much airtime, maybe much respect.

Hannah (47:02.539)

It started from the mad movement of people who had had very adverse experiences in psychiatric units. Okay. Yeah. Pegged as someone with a mental health disorder and that's following them around forever. Like, you struggle with bipolar. Okay. So there's your pathology. That's who you are. That's the box you fit in and therefore you are unstable. You are unpredictable. You are a risk. You're a risk. Right. And, and so this is the movement from.

group of people who have been marginalized saying enough, right? This is inequitable. It's not, it's not okay. our narratives deserve to be heard and like reclaiming that, like it's not a bad thing. It's actually, it's a different way, a different way of being that's outside the dominant narrative, the norm. and it's actually okay. And, and so as I started looking more into this, I,

I started relating to this movement actually quite a bit, as I mentioned earlier, this neurodivergence I've had for, you know, in all different ways for as long as I can remember. I realized I had internalized some of these messages of like, these are parts of me that are dysfunctional, that I need to really do everything I can to take care of myself so that I can keep myself in a more stable, functional way, which...

It's not a bad thing, first of all. I get that.

labeling these parts myself as less than is not okay, right and Perceiving other people as their pathology and what that means about them is not okay and I'm getting to a place now where again, this is all it's relatively new and I'm wrapping my head around it, but I'm just noticing How I've been engaging in in sanest language Viewing other people

Hannah (49:04.235)

from this lens because it's so incessant all around us. And I...

I started thinking about self -compassion and how self -compassion can actually be a form of resistance. And I'm curious to engage in this conversation with you, because I'm, I think anything can be weaponized, anything. So it's not saying that self -compassion is the answer or, you know, but my experience of self -compassion, as I've mentioned a few times already,

has been around noticing, first of all, sensation that's uncomfortable or mistakes I made and really just allowing myself to feel it and be with it without it turning into I'm bad. Right? Or only a bad person would do that. What does this mean about me? what a, that was a, that was a nasty thought. Like I'm a bad person. Right? And instead recognizing this is human nature. Right? And I, okay, well, I didn't say that.

on what you thought or I don't want to act on it. But I also don't want to vilify it or make any parts of me feel like less than, I'm not included, I'm not welcome. Some need more guidance than others, right? And I think grounding is a really more, potentially more appropriate way to think about self -regulation at least in some contexts, because it's about being with what's here, but also being relational with her.

Yeah. Finding some stability and some space to be able to actually hold what's here. Right. Versus at least at this point in time for me, self -regulation is very much like, something's not okay inside of me. Right. And I need to regulate it so that I can re -engage. Yeah. And maybe that's appropriate sometimes, but I'm just really trying on this like, what if I approach this grounding? Because I actually...

Hannah (51:06.411)

I actually feel quite regulated after it's like a different approach to get the same thing, but doing it in a way that feels more inclusive and more welcoming. But I'm, yeah, I part of why I'm here for the self -compassion piece, even what comes up for you is I mentioned it in a workshop I was posting last night, that self -compassion is an active of resistance. And, and I talked about same as I'm an anti same as them. And this is a group of.

people doing somatic work for anxiety and depression. And part of what I want to bring in is really helping them recognize that nothing's wrong with them. And that we all have stuff. And that, you know, and so, yeah, I'm curious of your reflections or responses to thinking about self -compassion as an active resistance. What comes up for you? I like that. And actually, the first thing that came up is that I've...

I've actually been taking this training, this compassion focused therapy training. And I've just got through sort of the first bit of it, the first module, I guess you would say. And the two men who are teaching this course spend a lot of time actually explaining that the people who've developed compassion focused therapy, you compassion as this innate ability we all have. We can all have compassion for ourselves and for others, but it...

people almost need a little bit of help unlocking that ability sometimes. And it comes from actually, they said, I believe, some Buddhist principles. It's very much not based on a Western way of thinking or a Romanized way of thinking. It's interesting that this conversation comes up with everything we've been talking about. And I've been thinking a lot about this unlocking kind of notion with all of my character.

Because the cool thing about compassion focused therapy also and why I chose to take it is you can really apply it Because compassion is it's universal but yeah, not everyone understands compassion. Yes, and a big thing that I've been thinking about lately is the difference between passion and empathy. Yes, and You know how empathy is viewed as well typically what I've noticed is that we think

Hannah (53:30.219)

there's sympathy and there's empathy and empathy is the good one. Right. If you're empathetic, that's good. Right. It's always good to be empathetic. But actually one of the things that I sort of thought about in this course, and I believe it was even mentioned by one of the instructors, is that empathy can actually be also weaponized and can use empathy for sort of interesting things or, you know, some people, like he said,

know, psychopaths, we've always been told they can't, right? Because they can't possibly understand. In fact, they do understand. Yeah, right. Yeah, he said empathy. And this also comes full circle to this performative thing that we've talked about this concept of performative is that empathy can actually be performative in that we can surely say we understand.

someone feels or that we put ourselves in their shoes. Yeah. But that can be a pretty loaded state. Yes. Whereas compassion is, is really just that care and that love. I think, I think there's a lot of love and compassion and that's what's different. Yeah. And so it's interesting to think about it being this innate ability we all have that we don't have to use. Yeah. You know, we all have that inside of us. We have that.

And more often than not, we're able to show compassion to others and not to ourselves. And often the key in unlocking self -compassion is posing it as, what would you do if this was someone else in your life that you care about? What would you say to them? And I mean, nine times out of 10, we'd comfort them. Tell them, that's okay, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. You made a mistake. well, it doesn't define who you are. But when it's us...

beat ourselves up and we say, my gosh, I'm so bad. I don't want to let myself off the hook. I'm a hold myself accountable. Yeah. And it's like, there's no room for compassion. There's this perception that you can't be compassionate and accountable. Right. But I think you can be both worse. Yeah. You know, and the key is unlocking what is compassion mean to you? Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah (55:56.427)

And but you're right, I think, and and sanism has such a role in that. Yeah, because I think we especially those of us who are very relevant to people listening and watching right now is those of us who go to therapy, you know, or have recognized something and or some sort of pathology. We do attribute a lot of while this is because this is what's wrong with me. Right. Yeah. You know, that comes from this diagnosis or this.

definition of my problem. Yeah. And that is a bad part of me. Right. And I'm in there to fix it. Yes. Not to accept it or to give myself compassion. Yeah. But to eliminate it. Yeah, some parts of us are much easier to be compassionate with than others. Absolutely. And it's such an interesting thing to bring into the photography space is this message of compassion. Yeah. It kind of rocks people's world a little bit when they think that...

what therapy is meant for is to fix. Right, yeah, not to accept and to love. Which again, by doing that we end up getting what we were trying to get to by fixing. So it's interesting, you just approach it in a different way and you actually get what you were trying to force or change. So it, you know, something that I found really interesting about compassion and empathy as well is that,

MRI studies on people's brains as they're engaging in compassion versus empathy showed very different results. That those who are engaging in empathy, it is the pain centers in the brain that are lit up. Those who are engaging in compassion, it's the reward centers being lit up. So when I think about compassion, I think it includes empathy. For me, it starts with empathy. Because when I'm engaging in self -compassion,

It is turning towards and really letting myself feel what I'm feeling. And then it turns into compassion because of the following steps. So Kristin Neff has done a lot of research on self -compassion and has broken it down into tangible steps that we can follow. And the first step is mindfulness of just feeling, noticing what you're going through, what the struggle is, be with it, right? And maybe place your hands on your body where you're feeling it.

Hannah (58:20.587)

And then it's common humanity. So for me, this is about interconnectedness of acknowledging I'm not the only one who feels this or struggles with this. I'm not the first or the last. This is part of the human condition, really normalizing what we're going through and then engaging in self -kindness. So saying things like, may I remember to be patient with myself? May I remember that it's okay to not feel okay or whatever feels authentic for you in that moment.

we are finding that self -compassion that as an act of resistance, it's also, you know, when I think about colonialism, colonialism at its roots as an act of violent separation. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Violent separation from our land, from each other, from ourselves. Yeah. Shifting into a very individual stance on life.

you know, survival of the fittest. And a lot of, you know, the pathology of the stainism piece comes in too of, you know, only crazy people talk to themselves. Right? Or like, you know, and, and, and so self -compassion is actually inherently part of a multiplicity paradigm where we are turning towards ourselves, turning towards parts of ourselves that are suffering and being relational.

Yeah Right and coming back into connection coming back into a heart -led way of being and when we do that for ourselves It then actually gives us access to see other people as a multiplicity and even their actions that maybe it initially would have been like that's an asshole like instead it's that person is in pain or that was a very defensive a protective thing that person did like what's going on in their system and it actually brings people

back into connection. So to me, it's become this thing of like, if we can actually be more self compassionate, there will be fewer distractions that are keeping us in this place of othering and blaming. And then we can actually come together and start taking on the systems that are keeping us oppressed and keeping us separate. Yeah, yeah. In a way, it's rebuilds our collective. It rejects, you know, that of

Hannah (01:00:47.659)

every man. Yeah. And yeah, that individual individualistic way of thinking. Yeah. You're right. It really, it deconstructs such a pervasive and violent part of colonial culture, which is, you know, that sainism, but also that like, you, it's always looking out for number one. Yes. Yeah. No, it's, that's such a good point.

is it rejects so much of that narrative. Yeah, what we're told is normal, what we're told is good, how to fit in. And it's a very new thought. I think yesterday was the first time I said self -compassion is an act of resistance. It's just something that, based on the context, the content, I was like, it is. That's how it feels. And I said it. And...

And then this lovely person in the group sends an email asking, like, she's trying to wrap her head around it. And I, so then, yeah, so it's very top of mind. It feels exciting. It is exciting. And it's what a wonderful way to resist. Yeah. Right. Well, that comes back to this, this project at the core of it was how do we do this in a way where we're leading with our hearts and we're not going toe to toe. We're not going who has more power.

We're not blaming or canceling. We're having conversations and we're modeling leading with love and leading with our hearts. And, you know, it was, it was Bell Hooks who said something along the lines of as, as we, as we dismantle the system, we need to anchor to love. And that what, yeah, I really align with that. Cause that's one of the...

I think important aspects of this is if we're dismantling something, we need to know what we're recreating. We can't just burn something down and then think that we're going to do something different. Like back to Chiokas and Ghost Horse, we are perpetuating colonialism by the way that we're living and talking. So dismantling something violently, how is that any different than what's been done before? Yeah. Amazing. And you know, that love...

Hannah (01:03:10.891)

you know, and compassion being love and they're really all coming back to leading with our hearts is, I think something that makes your work so special and makes you so special is that truly just pours out of you when you talk and you can really see, you know, your true love for this work and for the self discovery. And it's amazing to hear you talk about your journey and amazing to be able to share this even just for a little bit with.

with our viewers and listeners, but I'm certainly excited to continue connecting with you over the course of our journeys through this whole thing and learn more about your work. So for the people out there listening, we will share, I believe, a link to your blog and a couple other things. Is there anything else that they should check out, anything you want to share, any recommendations?

Well, what I'm reading, I'm always reading many different books, but I finally started reading Decolonizing Therapy by Dr. Jennifer Mullen. And I made a comment after reading the first two chapters, like, if this book hadn't been written, this is where my practicum was leading. This is the book I wish I wrote. And I'm so glad I didn't have to write it. my God.

It is a beautiful book and I yeah anyone who's working in the therapy realm or a participant in the therapy realm the more the more we can understand the history and educate ourselves the more we can influence our circle around us and that that is going to to expand in really powerful ways and and just knowing like having

Even with sanism, it's very similar. Like until you have a concept or language to describe what's happening, it's really hard to have, obviously, conversations about it or to really understand these difficult, complex feelings we have. Right? For a long time growing up, I was like, I feel like something's wrong, but I can't name it. I don't like, I'd go through the checklist of like, I have a roof over my head. I...

Hannah (01:05:36.459)

I have a family who loves me. I have a lot of privilege. I wouldn't have used that word back in the day. But now that I can see the oppressive systems that are around me and how many people around me, especially growing up, I grew up Mormon, I grew up in an interesting community, seeing it from the outside now, I understand why I was so much in a state of suffering.

and unseen and not understood in that. And so I guess what, you know, anyone who kind of feels that like something's wrong, but I can't name what it is, there's a name for it. And there are people who understand it. And like you said, like just having a conversation with you or we jive and we don't have to like pause very much to be like.

What does that mean? There's nothing wrong with that, but it changes the conversation. And those conversations are great. But this feels really good to be able to say something and both of us are like, yes. So yeah, finding people that can chat about this. And any book that starts with decolonizing, great place to start. There's so many good decolonizing therapy, decolonizing trauma work, decolonizing.

methodologies. Yeah, all great. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, I feel like we're not done. I feel like we need to talk. Yeah, I agree. I maybe there's a part. Okay, cool. Thank you. Thank you. Great.