unfiltered therapists podcast Episode transcripts

Rayan (00:01.358)

Okay, thank you so much for being here. We're super excited to have you. For anybody watching and joining us today, I have with me Danielle Bayard -Jackson, Bayard -Jackson, who is a friendship expert and educator who speaks on female friendships. Your work is incredible. You've been kind of everywhere, like Psych Today, New York Times, all of these really cool places. But you also have a really cool podcast called Friend Forward as well.

Can you tell us a little bit about what it is you do, what your favorite thing is about the work that you do?

Danielle (00:37.001)

Yeah, so I am a friendship coach and educator. And it's funny because when I first started this work about six years ago, I was literally getting like laughed at when I would introduce myself, you know, at parties. And it's interesting, you know, I don't say that from like a victim pity thing, but it's just interesting to see how much things have changed and to see so many people be comfortable now with the idea of getting support for relationships that are not familial or romantic is very exciting to me.

Rayan (00:49.39)

Danielle (01:06.665)

And so in my work, if people have specific goals around friendship and connection, I'm equipped to come alongside them and help them figure out how are we gonna get it done? And I also mostly spend a lot of my time outside of coaching, traveling and speaking on the science of women's conflict and connection.

Rayan (01:23.342)

That's very, very cool. I read your book. I have it with me because just recently I have a book. It was incredible. I enjoyed it a lot. Actually, it was very easy to read, easy to get through, and it was very clear cut, very practical. So I appreciated that. There wasn't a lot of nonsense in it.

Danielle (01:28.105)

yay!

Danielle (01:44.901)

I'm so glad. Thank you for taking the time to read it.

Rayan (01:47.854)

Yeah, of course. It was incredible. I mean, the amount of research and the amount of thought and the amount of effort that you put into this was really, really cool. And you kind of have it laid out so easily for people to get through, which I appreciate. How was that? What was it like to write a book?

Danielle (02:08.009)

You know, it was something that was really tricky was not succumbing to the pressure that it needed to be all the things for all the people. Because, you know, I read the reviews, even though a lot of my author friends tell me don't do that. They're like, don't read it. Just, you know, just trust you put it out there. And I'm like, I'm going to see what people are saying. OK. And it's mostly positive. But like I thought, you are going to have people who, you know, friendship is such a big.

Rayan (02:24.91)

Thank you.

Danielle (02:32.617)

personal thing and so people are reading it and hoping to see their unique experiences reflected back to them and I get that and so we spent time to make sure that it reflected the research that reflected, you know, focus groups and what they were saying, client stories, comments on TikTok, you know, so we really wanted it to feel relevant and timely to the woman reading it. But of course, there are people who expected it to also in touch on this and that and this and that and so it's important to me to stay in my lane and be responsible and talk about what I know about.

And I definitely reached out to different experts to help kind of round out some of those opinions. But, you know, it can't be all the things to all the people. And it definitely was research that touched on the tendencies of certain groups. Most of the research you use was focusing on women, you know, Western women, and some of them had mostly white women. And I made sure to kind of note that and look for diversity in the research. But the good thing is that I hope that this is one of many books.

Rayan (03:18.254)

Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle (03:29.513)

in a person's friendship library, you know, similar to how like you're trying to be a better parent, you have lots of different books, you know, so I hope that this is that for people that it's one source that adds more texture to the conversation around having better friendships with other women. And so we did our best to put something together that could touch on all the things, both the mix of high level research, but also tactical stuff like, okay, this concept is interesting, but also what do I say to my friend tonight?

Rayan (03:43.182)

Right.

Danielle (03:57.929)

on this text, you know, so we tried to have it be balanced and we wanted to offer something that women felt could could be immediately useful.

Rayan (04:04.526)

Totally, yeah, and I think that is very evident in the way that it comes across. I think you did a great job at making it immediately useful, but also giving people places to go, right? Like things to look for moving forward.

Danielle (04:15.689)

Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad. And having that balance of like, you know, I also wanted to take an aerial view because we wanted people to be able to say, I think I understand the overall mechanics of women's friendships a little better. We wanted to offer that so that whenever you're in any kind of sticky situation with a friend, the details might be different, but we want you to be able to say almost like a social scientist, like, I see what's happening here. We were trying to go for that and hopefully it was helpful. Yeah.

Rayan (04:37.518)

Right.

Rayan (04:41.486)

Yeah, no. And I love that because I think when we notice the pattern that we're falling into, we have there's more of a likelihood that we're going to stop ourselves and be like, wait, this is what I'm doing. I need to step back and like reassess, right. Or come back to this another time. Yeah. And so before all of this used to be a high school educator as well. Right. And I guess for those of for the people that haven't read your book, but that's kind of how we got into friendship coaching. What was it like trying to find your way into?

Danielle (04:54.41)

Yeah, exactly.

Rayan (05:10.99)

this kind of information or these kind of research studies because like you said, it wasn't, it's kind of, at first it was kind of silly, like you're a friendship coach or maybe you're a friendship coach for a high school kids, right? Like, but how is it trying to find information and trying to find helpful information when you work?

Danielle (05:27.177)

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, so I studied education at the University of Florida and got into teaching. So I was teaching 12th graders for six years. And it's the number one thing, especially that, you know, female students wanted to talk about between classes and after school was friendship stuff. Now, we often dismiss teenage issues as it's just drama, but it's like these are very important issues to them, issues of connection and belonging. So kind of having a front row seat to how issues of connection.

directly impact everything else, whether or not they came to school, their academic performance, their attitude, their mood, based on if they were in or out of the group, if they had social support or not, so getting to see that. And then I became the academic chair at one of the largest schools in the country. And the teachers, we wanted to talk about that during staff meetings because it was getting in the way of instruction. If they were receptive to it or if they also feel that they're iced out from.

the girl who's giving them the cold shoulder in the corner and how to reconcile, you know? So that was something I didn't realize I was kind of in the trenches of. And as a friendship coach, when I got into this, I had to leverage my background and education to study what the research has to say. And I just started, you know, looking up different studies and journals on women's cooperation and our communication, how are our linguistics different than how men...

tend to talk to each other and how is that influenced by cultural expectations and norms? You know, like why are women using more hedging language when we talk to each other? Why are we using words like let's, right? Where men are giving more commands even from boys and girls in the playground starting that young. What are the social consequences to a girl who comes into a female dominated space and doesn't use all that hedging language and speaks very directly like boys do?

What are the consequences going to be in a female dominated group? So I just think all of that stuff is very interesting and it's been cool to be able to talk to the researchers themselves to ask them, what have you uncovered and what are the implications of those discoveries?

Rayan (07:31.214)

Yeah, that is very cool. And the way that like the thing that you pointed out to about like, what if a girl doesn't fit into the ways that typically females communicate, right? Or like typically the way that women communicate, what happens if she is more direct? And like, what is the outcome of that? It's also very interesting because I think that's very much a learned behavior, right? The way that we communicate is very learned. And so that is very cool. It was a big, big deal for high school students to make sure that their friendships were going well.

Danielle (07:45.481)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (08:01.198)

And I also know from personal experience, from counseling sessions, from talking to other women, that it's also a big deal for adult women to make sure that their friendships are doing well and doing okay. What do you find to be one of the bigger challenges in adult friendships? Or some of the bigger challenges.

Danielle (08:16.361)

That's a good. Yeah, that's a really good question. Yeah, I often joke because people ask, you know, what's the what was the biggest difference, you know, working with teenagers and adults? And I'm like, not much, you know, they're you know, the details look different. But at the heart of it, the desires were the same. Nobody wants to be rejected.

Rayan (08:27.214)

Yeah.

Danielle (08:33.673)

Everybody wants to find their people. Everybody wants to be in a space where you feel like you can authentically show up as yourself. And I don't see that changing from one group to another. I do think that some of the issues people cite most to forming satisfying adult friendships are a lack of time, feeling like they've changed and their friends haven't. So now we're like evolving, feeling like things aren't reciprocal and whatever way that looks like is like the number one thing I hear and figuring out.

Rayan (08:39.086)

Yeah.

Danielle (09:02.729)

how to make friends in kind of letting go of the shame around, I should have made all my friends already. I hear that often. I should have made my friends in high school. I should have made, I was like, what does that say for like the next 45 years you got on this earth? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like you're going to continue to evolve. And the research shows that we replace about half of our friends every seven years. And what that says to me is we,

Rayan (09:20.462)

I'm happy you liked it.

Danielle (09:31.209)

need to develop the skill of making new friends because we'll always be having to do it. So those are some of the differences that I've noticed.

Rayan (09:39.79)

That's very interesting, replacing half of your friends every seven years. Because I feel like too, as women, when we find our people, we tend to just really focus on those people and not want to spread out so much. Which obviously then impacts the friendship building skills, I guess, right? Yeah. What would you say to people who are struggling to make friends? Or where do we start in building some of those skills that it would take to make friendships?

Danielle (09:49.961)

Mm -hmm.

Danielle (09:57.193)

Yeah.

Danielle (10:08.617)

Yeah, the first is definitely a mindset thing. So like at the risk of sounding like life coachy, but you know, if you secretly kind of think that it's too late for you or that you are, I mean, that sounds bad, but like if you believe that you're so different and unique that no one can understand you because you're just so weird and different and broken, those things directly impact the way that you engage when you do have an opportunity to connect.

Rayan (10:14.286)

That's okay.

Rayan (10:18.766)

Mm.

Rayan (10:31.15)

Yeah.

Danielle (10:36.681)

because I'm not going to totally be attentive and lean in because I don't really think this can turn into anything. It's too late. Or if I think that I'm so different, I'm not going to initiate and pursue because I am scared that you will actually get to know me and not like me. So I'm not going to get close to you. So some of these beliefs directly impact the way that we even show up. So I think it starts with believing that there is so much abundance available on your friendship landscape. You can make friends whenever you want. You really could.

And I don't think that's coming from a naive place. But one thing I tend to tell people who want to get into friend making, I have one general concept and then maybe like two tangible tips. The general concept is you have to adopt the identity of being a connector because there's research that shows that when people have opportunities presented to them as a verb instead of a noun, they're more likely to lean in. So what I mean is they did this study where they asked people, you know, be a voter.

and come vote on Thursday or, you know, go vote. You need to vote. But people who it's more of like, this is the essence of who you are. I'm a voter. They want a chance to confirm the way they already see themselves. You know, they did another study where they asked these kids who are in the middle of playing. They said, can you help me clean up? And then they said, be a helper. Do you want to be a helper and clean up? So the one to I said it backwards, like who body as a noun, like this is who I am.

We do it more. So instead of thinking, I want to make new friends. I want to try to do this thing. It's got to be who you are. I am a connector. That's who I am. I like people. I like relationships. And then those behaviors become an extension of who you are as opposed to this behavior that you randomly try on and these fleeting moments of confidence. No, this is who I am. So I'm going to wave hello because I want to wave hello. I'm going to text my friend because she crossed my mind.

Rayan (12:27.406)

Yeah.

Danielle (12:33.353)

You know, so I'm doing it because that's what I value as opposed to, well, I don't know, it depends. Like if she seems like she's down, then I'll reach out. Like, no, some authority in our friend making journey. But two tangible tips for the person who's like, okay, how do I get that done? A couple things. One is to leverage the help of super connectors. So we all know the person who wants to, Tiffany, meet my friends, Maria, like that girl, tell her.

You know, like, yeah, I'm trying to get more plugged in. What do you think? You know, they're happy to give you their two cents and to invite you as a plus one. But how do you expect to get your needs met if you're too scared to make the desire note? You got to say, I'm trying to get more plugged in. Do you know of anything for a person to be able to say, my gosh, I'm in a book club every first Tuesday. You should come. But I don't know that you're even hungry for that kind of thing. Also, become a regular. A lot of us work remotely. That's a lot of alone time. How can you go and...

Work remotely maybe from a coffee shop every Friday morning for like an hour. But like how can I create some routines outside of the house to increase my chances of seeing familiar faces and forming relationships with people I see all the time. And then finally things like, you know, leveraging technology. There's lots of apps now to help you make friends. And I don't think that makes you desperate. I think it makes you resourceful. So there are lots of opportunities all around. I think we just have to train ourselves to see them.

Rayan (13:59.662)

I love that. I love the identity thing because I think so often we take the hesitation as an identity thing, right? Or the rejection as an identity thing. Like it's something about me that makes it hard for me to make friendships. Like you said, the weird thing or like I'm so different or like, and reframing that is so, so cool to see the way that you did it, right? Being like, no, like I want connection. Maybe I am a person who is like a connection type of person. And so like, how do I go about doing that? And then yeah, the other thing that you said that.

Danielle (14:08.073)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (14:28.398)

really resonated was making your needs known, right? Nobody's gonna introduce you to other people if they don't feel like you want to be introduced or you're not gonna get the needs met if you're too afraid to say that you have the needs. Yeah. I think the rejection piece is what's standing out to me because that can be really painful for people, whether it's the rejection of like a year long friendship coming to an end, right? Or like the rejection of trying to make friends and not really finding people we click with.

Danielle (14:35.017)

Mm -hmm.

Danielle (14:41.289)

Absolutely. Yep.

Danielle (14:56.937)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (14:57.678)

What are your thoughts on rejection?

Danielle (15:01.513)

You know, I once heard somebody say that so much of life and how you experience it boils down to how you metabolize rejection. And I love that image. I think it's natural to.

feel a pinch to feel a sting when somebody says, I don't want what you're offering. It's hurtful. I think the difference becomes what happens next because we can't become immobilized by the possibility of rejection. I feel like you can almost absorb it better if you anticipate, if you know it's going to be a part of the friend making journey. There are going to be times people are like, I'm not feeling it.

Rayan (15:26.734)

Hmm.

Danielle (15:50.793)

Okay, like whether it's being your friend in general or maybe I'm vulnerable with a friend for the first time and it doesn't go well. Like she's does not respond well and I feel rejected in this moment. But what happens next? Have I developed the skill of resilience? Do I secretly believe I have nothing to offer this world or to other people? So when I'm rejected, I internalize it. That's confirmation. I knew it. I knew I wasn't interesting or cool or lovable. Like what happens next?

because I always joke that I would like to think I'm a good conversationalist and a good brand and like really cool and awesome. But there are women who don't think so, who are just like, man, I wasn't feeling her. You know what I'm saying? Like, is there like a little pinch? Sure. But I don't find myself thinking like, gosh, like I knew it. What's wrong with me? I'm not as smart as them. I'm not as, I guess I'm not as interesting as them.

Rayan (16:33.23)

Yeah.

Danielle (16:45.865)

I don't really go there. And if I do, it's for a little bit. I have to coach myself through like, okay, well, weren't compatible. She wasn't feeling it. That's okay. Okay. I got it. I just got to pivot, you know, and coaching myself through it. But I think it's, it's hard because a lot of us go to, and I'm sure you've seen it in your work. We go to, well, I'm never doing that again. Or you know what? I'm done. I'm so done with people. I'm so done with, you know, and

Rayan (17:06.926)

Yeah.

Danielle (17:13.737)

I'll end with this. There's a journalist named Raina Cohen. She wrote the book, The Other Significant Others, and she says, I'd rather have the problems that come with community than the problems that come with isolation. So if you're trying to be involved in relationship while avoiding pain and disappointment, that's just not possible.

Rayan (17:27.47)

Cool.

Rayan (17:35.118)

Right. I do love that because I think there we we want community for all the benefits it has to offer. We want friends for all the great fun times, but not so much for, you know, when things are hurtful to us. We don't want that part. We want to avoid it. And that's very natural. Like, that's just human. Right. But I do love that. But yeah, rejection dusting it is shitty and it's not the most fun.

Danielle (17:53.033)

Yeah.

Danielle (18:00.169)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (18:01.742)

It's also not the most fun to lose a friend that you've had for a very long time. Do you find that you ever have people dealing with friendship breakups or how do we get people through a friendship breakup if it was a very significant friendship?

Danielle (18:17.225)

Yeah. yes, I do hear that all the time. And that's probably because I work with women specifically. You don't too often hear men lamenting over, losing a friend's, and I'm not saying that they don't grieve that, but it's something that women are very vocal about. I think that's for a couple of reasons. One, the research shows that women tend to integrate their friends into their lives to the degree of a sibling, men to the degree of a cousin.

Rayan (18:23.63)

Yeah.

Danielle (18:44.969)

The research shows that we are also, we experience a lot more platonic intimacy with one another, where men kind of tend to keep at a distance. But we also have more fragile friendships, meaning they dissolve at a higher rate. That doesn't necessarily mean we're doing anything wrong or we're petty, but you're typically not falling out with a person you were invested in to begin with. And we get very invested in and close with our friends. So it's very painful when those things are over.

The last thing I'll say about like why it sometimes feels painful I once heard somebody say and I wish I knew who it was so I can give her proper credit but from like a heterosexual perspective she was saying that You know sometimes it feels like men see women as an object, but a woman sees you The person like when you look at another woman she sees you so friendship is such an elective relationship if that woman chooses you

and makes you to believe that you are funny and interesting and cool. She wants to spend time with you. She laughs at your jokes and then she un -chooses you. At least when you're dating, you can say, you know, that hurt, but that's not my person. Plenty of efficiency. With the friend, we do begin to question, am I interesting? Am I lovable? Like if she can just end things with me and it's really hard to move on. I think a couple of things that are helpful are one,

Let yourself grieve it. We hear that all the time. But any message you have in your brain about like, why am I even tripping over this? Like I can get new friends that no, it's okay to feel the loss of a relationship that meant something to you. Okay. So that's first of all, without going to like, you know what? She was fake anyway. I need real friends. Like moving so fast. It's okay to be like, God, this really sucks. That was like my sister is okay. The second thing is, this sounds kind of cheesy, but.

You know, some research suggests that we're able to move on with less bitterness and resentment if we can identify one thing we were grateful for during our time together, which can be hard if you feel like she's a witch. I'm not grateful for a darn thing, you know, but if you, but if you can at least say, you know what, we were tight during college and I don't think I would have gotten through those years without her as my friend. So I am grateful that I had her companionship during a really hard season. That's something.

Rayan (20:50.318)

Yeah.

Danielle (21:05.801)

That is something. Now I can kind of move on with gratitude and then put your head on a swivel and see what are some other social connections that you kind of have that you've been overlooking because you've been so entrenched with your girl. What are some other connections you've kind of let be stale people who've been pursuing you. You can't replace your friends but can you start entertaining some other connections and entertaining new hobbies and interests that you haven't pursued because it felt

like it didn't align with this friendship and who you were in this friendship, this might be the time to start positioning yourself for new activities and new people to be able to move forward in a healthy way.

Rayan (21:46.35)

I love that. I like the swivel thing because I do think we tend to avoid, not avoid maybe, but just like overlook some other things going on for us because we focus so much on the people that we want to be with and be around. I like that. What happens when we're too afraid to bring up an issue though with our friends or like if we are feeling rejected or snubbed or whatever and we don't want to rock the boat.

Danielle (21:57.321)

Mm -hmm.

Danielle (22:14.217)

Yeah, that is such a valid thing because especially for women, we are so mindful of her feelings. And women say to me all the time, the reasons they don't want to bring it up are, I don't want to make her feel bad. They say, quote, I don't want to be the bad guy. So that pressure to maintain an appearance of cooperation. So if I bring it up, am I now being difficult? Am I being drama? I don't want to be drama. So I'm just going to be chill. You know, so.

Rayan (22:30.766)

Yeah.

Rayan (22:38.638)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle (22:43.625)

And then also I think a lot of us kind of know intuitively that our friendships are fragile. So we're like, I'm not even going to test it. It feels risky to say, I'm not cool with what you said to me yesterday. So I'll just be chill or I'll give the silent treatment or I'll pretend I'm fine, but I'm not. I think one way to help people feel a little more courage around doing it is to remember that the right people want the data on how to love you well.

the right friend would want you to share that information. I know that if I found out like months later that a friend was uncomfortable with like a word I was saying or a joke I was making that I genuinely thought she was funny, I'd be so sad and insulted to discover she didn't tell me. Cause I want to do a good job at being your friend. So why not tell me that? Right? I'm not saying that maybe in the moment I might not have a little bit of defensiveness or like, okay, but I want to know.

Rayan (23:21.582)

Yeah.

Rayan (23:36.046)

Yeah.

Danielle (23:42.057)

Right. Eventually I'll come around. And so remembering that the right people want that information. And if there's any part of you that's hesitating to say it because you know, she's not one of the right people, you know, that there's a certain level of fragility or defensiveness or whatever, that you're not safe to say, I'm uncomfortable. I think that says something else entirely, but I'll end with this. I think it's helpful to know that the research says that on the other side of healthy conflict,

Rayan (23:42.094)

Yeah.

Danielle (24:10.057)

is often the platonic intimacy that you've been looking for. So they kind of go together.

Rayan (24:15.118)

So it really comes down to that discomfort, right? Like we really do have to push past that discomfort, whether it's rejection with making friends or whether it's this hesitancy to bring up conflict or like in whatever way we look at it, we do really have to push past that gross feeling that we get to bring things up sometimes.

Danielle (24:31.305)

Yeah. And it is uncomfortable. Oftentimes when we talk about vulnerability, a lot of us think about like crying or talking about trauma and being like, I'm going to be vulnerable and share. Vulnerability is also raising an issue. It's vulnerable to say, I, I, I don't really like what you said yesterday. Feels vulnerable. That feels like, risk. So I get it. But you know, I often have people think about the last time they did raise an issue with somebody and it went well.

Rayan (24:39.246)

Right.

Rayan (24:48.654)

Yeah.

Rayan (24:57.358)

Hmm.

Danielle (25:00.585)

it's possible for that to happen again. Where you raise an issue and they were like, my God, I had no idea I was doing that. I did not mean it like that. I'm glad you told me. You know, so remembering that sometimes can be helpful too.

Rayan (25:07.886)

Right.

Rayan (25:12.654)

That's so great. No, I love that. You talk just like one of our other therapists, by the way, and like every time when you're like explaining some of these things, I'm like, my God, all I see in my head is Ali because you guys talk exactly the same. Yeah. But thank you so much for this because I think a lot of like friendships are really, really important to us, especially as women. I work on a team of women and our friendship is incredibly important.

Danielle (25:18.153)

Danielle (25:27.077)

that's interesting.

Rayan (25:40.014)

And in my work with women too, a lot of it, it really does come down to like, like my friends, they just don't get me right now. Or like, I'm having such a hard time connecting right now. Or like, they just don't see how much I'm going through and like all of these things. And it is really painful and really, really hard. So I think normalizing conversations around friendships and normalizing, you know, that sometimes they're not all fun times is important. Yeah.

Danielle (25:40.201)

Mmm.

Danielle (25:50.729)

Mmm.

Danielle (26:00.809)

Yeah, interesting. Do you see that as like, like if you had to list that kind of like the top like friendship issues people are talking about, what are they? What you just said about feeling like, like not being able to connect to friends or that they don't or they're getting inadequate support.

Rayan (26:16.014)

Yeah, I think like a lot of times it's, you know, I went, I want to tell my friend about this, but I don't think I'll get what I want out of it. Right. Like I won't get the thing that I want. And a lot of times it's because we're looking to other people to fulfill that for us when really we need to be doing that for ourselves. But then the other thing too, is just really building connection, right? Like making friends and putting ourselves out there, or we're putting ourselves out there, but we're not finding the people that we want to connect with the type of person that we want. Right. Or like the

Danielle (26:21.865)

Mmm.

Danielle (26:31.657)

Mmm.

Danielle (26:42.185)

Mm -hmm.

Rayan (26:44.846)

the type of friend that we want. So yeah, I think those two things are, are the things that I see most of.

Danielle (26:51.209)

Interesting. So like confidently raising issues of conflict and then finding the right people when they're looking for new friends. Interesting. Huh. Okay. Yeah, I was just.

Rayan (26:57.934)

Yeah. Interesting. That's cool. Such a cool conversation. I love friendships. Well, the conversations around friendships and I think they are really important. So thank you for doing this with me. It was such a pleasure to have you. How? Yeah, how can people get ahold of you? How can people find you if they want to learn more about you? Find your book, find your podcast. How do we do that?

Danielle (27:09.705)

Yeah.

Danielle (27:13.577)

Of course, thank you for having me.

Danielle (27:23.369)

Yeah, so everything lives at betterfemalefriendships .com and it's just a place where we have conversations around what it looks like to enjoy more satisfaction with your friendships with other women because it's possible. So even if it's just by two degrees, how can you be more satisfied with other women? It's just kind of the goal. So everything lives there and I'm just so excited for people to be having more open conversation around women's friendships and how to connect more. It's just really beautiful. It's really beautiful.

Rayan (27:34.67)

Yeah.

Rayan (27:49.646)

Thank you.

Danielle (27:52.937)

So and I'm excited to be one of many people working in this space. So everything lives at betterfemalefriendships .com and I look forward to seeing people over there.

Rayan (27:59.918)

Love that. We will also put that in the, in the little text underneath the podcast and everything like that. But, your insights are incredible. They're so, so valuable. I listened to the podcast. I love it. So it's been, yeah, it's been, it's been so good to chat with you and yeah, I'm just so appreciative that we could get this set up.

Danielle (28:12.009)

yay!

Danielle (28:19.977)

Well, thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me to lend my voice to the conversation. And if there's any other way that I can be a resource, just give me a shout.

Rayan (28:26.67)

Thank you so much, I so appreciate it.

Danielle (28:28.777)

All right, have a good one.